Is Atheism mature?

[Card VII]

Atheism is not a set of beliefs. It is the lack of a belief in a god. That is it.
There's no doctrine here, no rules, no beliefs. It is simply: "there's no proof for a god so I don't believe in one".

As far as I know people are not atheists because they don't like rules. If you are convinced there is a god out there who is going to punish you for eternity, no sane person would be "Meh, I'll just be atheist because I don't like the rules". If the youth leans towards atheism it does not mean they do so because they think it's cooler. Either you think a god exists, or you do not.

Not going to address the first paragraph, because we all know that. The term "set of beliefs" was for a lack of a better term.

The second paragraph is not what I'm saying at all, or what I ever said. I said, "I feel the youth leans more towards Atheism is a more versatile set of beliefs."

Because I just said that the term "set of beliefs" was for a lack of a better term, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with the statement. Would you honestly say that Atheism is less versatile than religions that do have a set of rules? Atheism doesn't have a set of rules at all. It just says that there is no God. That's it. Which leaves room for people to believe other things about morality and whatnot. Therefore, it is more versatile.

I never said Atheism is for people who don't like rules. I said that Atheism is more versatile, believed to be more progressive, and that religions are seen as more archaic and not fit to address today's problems.

[Automatic]

I wouldn't use the words versatile and progressive but what you said was that the youth is leaning towards atheism because of the lack of rules. Which is ridiculous since that would imply that people choose to be atheist not because they don't believe in a deity but rather because it does not prohibit them from doing certain things. Like I said, either you believe in a god (which according to the main religions will punish you if you do not follow their rules), or you do not. Rules do not affect belief in a deity or lack thereof.

"I can't eat pork? Well, I guess I'll just stop believing in you then God!"

[The Nexerus]

As far as I know people are not atheists because they don't like rules. If you are convinced there is a god out there who is going to punish you for eternity, no sane person would be "Meh, I'll just be atheist because I don't like the rules". If the youth leans towards atheism it does not mean they do so because they think it's cooler.

Speaking from the perspective of someone in High School, I can tell you that you're wrong.

Somehow atheism is hip now, and everyone I know is either atheist and incredibly snobby about it or apathetic to theology.

[Card VII]

I wouldn't use the words versatile and progressive but what you said was that the youth is leaning towards atheism because of the lack of rules. Which is ridiculous since that would imply that people choose to be atheist not because they don't believe in a deity but rather because it does not prohibit them from doing certain things. Like I said, either you believe in a god (which according to the main religions will punish you if you do not follow their rules), or you do not. Rules do not affect belief in a deity or lack thereof.

"I can't eat pork? Well, I guess I'll just stop believing in you then God!"

No. That isn't what I said. I said youth make the choice to be Atheist because they feel that the rules aren't needed, which influences their choice. Not because lolfuckrules, but because they believe the rules aren't needed, and that they are unnecessary, and all that matters is the belief and ideal.

I'm not attempting to discredit the youth's choices, and simplify them to "duuuude, i want to like eat pork man," I'm trying to explain what I see, and I see that the youth often choose Atheism because I think they believe the rules make religions less compatible with the problems of today's world.

Obviously, the core reason for being Atheist is obviously going to be that they don't believe in a god, but an influencing factor is the idea that religion is ancient, and not able to adjust to today's world. Thus, Atheism seems much more appealing because they are then capable of choosing their own rules, and they choose it.

I'm not trying to simplify the youth's leaning towards Atheism to lolfuckrulesiwantpork, I'm trying to explain the influences behind the choice besides that they don't believe in a god, because there are more facets and layers to choices like this.

[Automatic]

You seem to think that being non-religious is the same as being atheist.
I'm sure that people can choose to be non-religious if they don't like the rules, however this does not mean that they do not believe in a god, spirit or whatever supernatural idea they may have. When you really do not believe in a god, you are atheist. And the latter is not related to whether a religion is cool or not.

A belief in a deity is based on a number of things including proof, probability, tradition, authority figures etc. But rules really cannot convince anyone to stop believing in a deity, at most it can make someone reject or accept a certain dogma.

EDIT: The bottom line is that if your belief in a deity is based (even if it's only a small part) on the appeal of a set of rules or the absence of rules... you are lying to yourself or you have no idea what a deity is.

[The Nexerus]

You seem to think that being non-religious is the same as being atheist.
I'm sure that people can choose to be non-religious if they don't like the rules, however this does not mean that they do not believe in a god, spirit or whatever supernatural idea they may have. When you really do not believe in a god, you are atheist. And the latter is not related to whether a religion is cool or not..

Right, but they really don't believe in God.

[Scribz]

You have never seen an Atheist speak badly of religion? To be quite honest then either you live in a cave or you do not pay attention when someone talk shit about a group you are not a member of, for all you need to do is start a debate about religion on most any forum and sit back and watch the flames. Or is it that you mean that any negativity, any suggestion of limiting religious freedom and so on is not speaking wrongly about religion?

Yes, I have. I've spoken badly of religion. Like Elendra has, we all have.

We've all spoken badly about the things done in religions name.

The holocaust.

The crusade.

The witch hunts.

Denying homosexuals equal rights.

Denying women equal rights.

The raping of children.

It goes on, and on, and on, and on.

Besides, nothing Elendra said was at all wrong. It wasn't him calling them a name or anything. He was simply stating what they have done.

Point of the matter is, if we were to weigh who is more in the wrong here. It would be religious people, but that's not even the climatic point of all this.

The climatic point, would be that when it was done by the religious, it was a set goal. It was organized, a group of people, numbers, armies. You name it. There was a system involved.

Atheism does not entail any system or code of beliefs, simply the lack of one, very simple belief. "God, doesn't exist". End of story. It does not measure morality, or monitor customs, it does not tell you to do this or that or whatever. It is simply a belief with little else that entails behind it.

Basically, if an atheist in an ass hole. He would be an ass hole even if he was a theist. If a theist was an ass hole due to his religious beliefs, there's still a chance he wouldn't be as greatly an ass hole if he was an atheist.

Because the hateful words of atheism isn't in some holy scripture!

Now, this is by far extremely off-topic. So if you reply to this, know that you won't be getting another reply. MDK runs a tight ship, not a shite tip.

Did I say that was any better? It is not right to try to force your views on other no matter what those views are religious or not.

Absolutely not, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. However there does need to be people fighting for the rights of others. In this quirky li'l forum however? Nope, not really.

There are allot of stupid people in the world. Not that long ago some young politicians got into allot of heat for making a music video about how they where at a good hotel enjoying themselves on the taxpayers bills, and then they posted it to YouTube. I think some folks forget that things said over the internet can be traced back to them.

Citation? I just want to see this.

And, yeah - there is.

Also the person aka me is not a student, at least not school student, though I do study several topics of occultism and alternative therapy at home. English is not my first language I am Norwegian and I have dyslexia. Tell me how many languages do you speak and can you write them flawlessly?, no offense

Gaelic.

Anyway. Ending point.

Elendra didn't say anything bad about religious people. Just religion.

I didn't even say anything bad about religious people. Just religion. Though I did use a very uppity tone that i'm sure begrudged you a bit. What with insulting annotations here and there.

So, the next time you speak about how atheists aren't so great, don't try to then imply that we're somehow comparable to mass numbers of people who are in a group that has killed and oppressed people for over a thousand years.

Especially not with the whole "We're being victimized" mindset, because - if i'm to remember. Gay marriage still isn't legal because of religion, when praying is. Any change in law hasn't actually oppressed religion at all, only made it so it's no longer mandatory.

[Elendra]

Will say, that in all fairness, religion is losing ground in the 'most used excuse to do horrible things'

... or has already lost that, maybe

to nationalism. That stuff scares me also.

[Hagazussa]

To Automantic

If you're Norwegian pretty much everyone around you is either atheist or really does not give a shit. Elendra lives in the lovely US bible belt where the situation is completely different. That place has over 80% christianity I believe so I doubt the atheists there are being the "oppressors" and forcing people to do (or do not) do anything.

First of all read my post. I did not say that Atheists did oppress anyone I said that many wanted to. Also there are quite a few religious people in Norway for while allot of people are secular still there are more people who are religious than not. That being said I will grant you that most Norwegian religious people are more tolerant than those you will find in the American Bible belt. Now my original point was not that Atheists oppress religious people, they just plain lack the numbers to do so, what I was saying is that the desire to press ones belief on others is no better if they are Atheist beliefs. In Norway we have a saying that something like this, clean your own house first, meaning before you bash the actions of others, be sure you are not doing the same yourself.

As far as I know people are not atheists because they don't like rules. If you are convinced there is a god out there who is going to punish you for eternity, no sane person would be "Meh, I'll just be atheist because I don't like the rules". If the youth leans towards atheism it does not mean they do so because they think it's cooler. Either you think a god exists, or you do not.

This I completely agree with.

To Elendra

Atheism has no code or doctrine or dogma. Each atheist's belief is their own. There is no central conglomeration.

And yet you criticize religious people as a whole even if as a group religious share no more trait that Atheist as there are allot of different religions and also allot of people who are alone in their beliefs meaning religions have no more in common as a large group than Atheists do, we all have different beliefs and philosophies.

Ad hominem, never did I say I was targeted, and truth be told I wasn't. I became atheist by rejecting the intolerance I was told to spread. Subsequently it was only then that I was the target of any of such intolerance.

I never said you where targeted, I said that it is easier to see the intolerance directed at one self or at the group or category one belong to than that directed at others. Just like you may see that I as a religious person might more easily notice the intolerance directed at me and other religious people than that directed that Atheists, after all it is scientifically proven that the human focus then to be rather self centric.

Citation needed. Also, again, them being anti-theists does not make atheism the source of their stance. You're implying a link where there is none.

I am only saying that I as a religious person get rather tired at being berated, told that I am naive, stupid and insane for my beliefs. I get tired of being told I should not be allowed to have children, that I should be locked up or that the prayer I whisper over my food when eating at a cafe is somehow so offensive that certain Atheists can not stand it even if my words are so low that unless they sit right next to me they would be unable to hear anything.

Now I have some game's to GM before bed and I do not have the time to look up the old forum threads and the like. But like I said look at any discussion of religion on YouTube or forums or on Facebook and you will normally find some pretty extreme views, on both sides.

Anecdotal evidence is bad evidence. Do not use it as part of a claim, because it is weak.

Just goodle it, the information is right there.

I do, I have a blog about conversations I have with religious people.

Ok now actually start some debates and discuss the topic with people. If you have not found intolerance from both sides in such debates either you are the most lucky Internet debater ever or you are purposefully not seeing it. Try to go into a debate with Atheists and claim to be a tolerant follower of a religion and see how many ugly comments you get. I urge everyone to do that, do not just take my word for it, test it out yourself.

You mean like here?

For the most part I spend my time at this forum roleplaying I do not think I have had debates about religion here besides this one, but sure give it a go.

If it's easy to find, than why can't you do it?

Among other things because I actually have a life outside of internet and tend to not have allot of time to spend here. But here is a few articles I found online with a quick search. I am sure you can find more.

http://news.yahoo.com/only-atheists-...235400792.html
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread762779/pg1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFtxPkp8CAM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPxyf...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xT3d5RFNATA
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...8040151AAz7vum

... yes... you did. That is exactly what you did.

By the logic you are employing here, I could say...

"All religious people are horrible, each and every person who follows a religion is a bad, bad man, or woman.

But I never said anything about religion."

No I did not say that. Read my post one more time, or perhaps try reading it for the first time and show me where I have said all Atheists do this or that, show me where I have said Atheism is bad.

Nope. It's the rejection of a belief, it is not itself a belief.

To believe there is nothing is also a belief.

Atheism does not claim to.

Exactly which is why it is a belief.

Wrong. Belief is completely unnecessary.

Really, then tell me, you just said that Atheists do not claim to know the ultimate truth so they do not know if what they assume about the world is true, ergo they believe it to be true.

No it isn't.

Yes it is, to try to force religion on someone and to try to force Atheism on them are exactly the same thing.

The largest and most practiced religions do, however, as a general rule.

Some of the largest ones did a long time ago yes, some practitioners still believe so today. However is that a reason to judge all religions practitioners why what some of them believe?

... yes I can. I can quite easily. It is a silly practice, and I think the faith itself is incredibly stupid. Sure, you have the right to believe it, but that doesn't make the belief not stupid.

So spoke the amazing, tolerant Atheist. So you have the right to judge for example Pagans for what Christians believe or Shintoists for the acts of Muslims and still I am horrible for even saying that some Atheists are intolerant to religious people, your doable standards amaze me.

Which is FAR better than when an atheist tried to argue against religion, and were then literally engulfed in flames.

No intolerance is okey, to say well I am intolerant but I have not done such and such so I am okey do not work. You can not cry over intolerance shown to you and then turn right back and be intolerant to others. The thing that reduces intolerance is respect and tolerance and an acceptance of others and their views, not to try to justify intolerance by saying someone in the other camp did worse.

You are free to believe, you should not be free to indoctrinate. Let the unlearned be exposed to as many beliefs as possible, what the beliefs say, and the morals they align themselves with.

I do not disagree with you on this, but how is it an answer to my original statement?

So it is not right for a parent to try to make their child their religion. That is itself, forcing their religion on someone else.

I do not think it is right to force a child to follow the religion of the parents no. Now off course a child will be affected by the beliefs and practices that it is exposed to, those be moral values, hobby activities or religious belief and you can not demand that parents not practice religion so that their children will not be exposed to it, however when that is said if a child want to leave a religion the parents should not get in their way and parents should not try to actively indoctrinate their children.

To Pas

Your everyday religions however is very mature , so mature to the point of retardation (not mental retardation, I mean obstructed (to the point of illness in some cases)). Where science (and through it Atheism) is like a endless tree growing with more knowledge, religious thought has finished up like a bonsi, well pruned and manicured rigeously by the faithfull, the tree is pretty and complete, stunted but complete. The one answer has been found and the word is God, and the pot can't fit anymore

First of all you are aware that there are more than one religion though and that many of them bases themselves not around dogma but around seeking knowledge, where no answer have been found, only a road to knowledge and enlightenment. Also Atheists are not the only ones who benefits and learns from science.

When you claim that Atheists are bashing and hating on religious people like crazy trying to remove their rights, fail them etc you're point of reference seems to be forums in which case I feel the need to point out... that's the internet. You find all the sorts of crazy.

Most of my experience with this comes from real life, flesh and blood people I talk with face to face. But since Elendra had a problem with believing my words unless I could document them and I generally do not videotape my discussions and conversations then internet was what I could think of to use as examples since there conversations are written up.

Now again I am not claiming, saying and suggesting that all or most Atheists are intolerant or want to take away religious people's rights. I am saying a fair number is and that I have had the misfortune of meeting some of them, including being physically attacked for wearing a religions symbol by a woman who screamed to me how bad religion was and tore my pendant off my chest.

To Scribz

Yes, I have. I've spoken badly of religion. Like Elendra has, we all have.

We've all spoken badly about the things done in religions name.

The holocaust.

The crusade.

The witch hunts.

Denying homosexuals equal rights.

Denying women equal rights.

The raping of children.

It goes on, and on, and on, and on.

I have absolutely no problem with someone speaking badly about such acts. What I have a problem with is blaming absolutely everyone who have a belief in the supernatural in one form or another for what some people have done in religion's name. That would be the same as if I where to blame all Atheists for religious people murdered in it's name in Soviet Russia for example. All the things above is horrible but you can not claim all religion is bad become some people misuse it.

The climatic point, would be that when it was done by the religious, it was a set goal. It was organized, a group of people, numbers, armies. You name it. There was a system involved.

Atheism does not entail any system or code of beliefs, simply the lack of one, very simple belief. "God, doesn't exist". End of story. It does not measure morality, or monitor customs, it does not tell you to do this or that or whatever. It is simply a belief with little else that entails behind it.

Ah so when someone hurt another in the name of Atheism then that is just one person doing something bad, while if a religion person do so then everyone in all religions are accountable? Are that what you are saying?

Basically, if an atheist in an ass hole. He would be an ass hole even if he was a theist. If a theist was an ass hole due to his religious beliefs, there's still a chance he wouldn't be as greatly an ass hole if he was an atheist.

This makes absolutely no sense.

Because the hateful words of atheism isn't in some holy scripture!

So intolerance is okey if it do not come from a book?

Now, this is by far extremely off-topic. So if you reply to this, know that you won't be getting another reply. MDK runs a tight ship, not a shite tip.

It is not off topic, it is discussing the beliefs involved, which is needed to actually answer the question of the poll, it is very relevant.

Absolutely not, an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind. However there does need to be people fighting for the rights of others. In this quirky li'l forum however? Nope, not really.

Yes there need to be people fighting for the rights of others I agree but I see how this addresses the point you had quoted could you please explain?

Citation? I just want to see this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0UEP0aTmuU

Anyway. Ending point.

Elendra didn't say anything bad about religious people. Just religion.

I didn't even say anything bad about religious people. Just religion. Though I did use a very uppity tone that i'm sure begrudged you a bit. What with insulting annotations here and there.

So, the next time you speak about how atheists aren't so great, don't try to then imply that we're somehow comparable to mass numbers of people who are in a group that has killed and oppressed people for over a thousand years.

First off all a religious person today is not to blame for what practitioners of their religion did before their birth or what some members of their religions do today, just like you are not to blame for the actions of Pol Pot. Being religious do not mean one condone violence or is guilty of violence but if you assume everyone is guilty for what their group have once did then Atheism have some blood to wipe of it's hands to, not as much as various religious groups though true, but if we compare the number of Atheists though the ages to the number of religious people then the statistics do not look that great for your group either, so how about we judge people on their deeds not their beliefs.

Especially not with the whole "We're being victimized" mindset, because - if i'm to remember. Gay marriage still isn't legal because of religion, when praying is. Any change in law hasn't actually oppressed religion at all, only made it so it's no longer mandatory.

I have not spoken about being victimized, I have said allot of Atheists are intolerant to, and intolerance is what creates the problems described above and unfortunately intolerance is not a trait just found in those of us who believe in the supernatural.

Now I have to get some roleplaying done and go to bed and by how quickly this thread is going I doubt I will be able to catch up with it by the time I have a chance to sit down with my computer tomorrow, so if I do not post further to this thread, though I will try to continue but I want to focus on roleplaying threads not off topic threads, then I thank you all for the debate.

[Dudel]

Atheism is a rejection of silly superstitions, not the rejection of being an asshole.

Will say, that in all fairness, religion is losing ground in the 'most used excuse to do horrible things'

... or has already lost that, maybe

to nationalism. That stuff scares me also.

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhnUgAaea4M[/yt]

Which is why we see a dozen of little bitch atheists who don't know shit about their own beliefs all over the place. Atheism itself is not a mark of maturity.

Next, please.

I've met more atheists I wanted to punch in the face than of any other "religious denomination."



I'll give atheism the "intellectually mature" flag, but I wont flag atheism as totally "mature" in the sense most people try and imply.

Also: I didn't vote in the poll, but I never vote in the polls.