Humanity or survival?

[Atlas Graveyard]

I'll give a couple of scenes and see how you think you would handle them. these will all be based on a zombie outbreak to be easier.

1: A teenage girl is banging on a window for help, she has barricaded her bedroom from a few zombies outside but more in the street are taking notice of the noise, they will get through in a matter of a minute or two. your are armed with a basic melee weapon and are across the street trying to sneak past the horde.
now this presents an opportunity, they are distracted by this girl you can escape in safety or you can attempt to enter the house and get her out but there's little time to decide. Understand you will be in earshot of hearing her been torn apart if you leave her.

2: You are held up in a pretty secure location but are running low on food and supplies when a small group of survivors come knocking asking for help, one is injured but claims it to be from a car accident down the road. the group consists of a grown man, an old man his daughter and her young son.
There won't be enough supplies for all of you meaning that some of the group will have to risk going out looking in a matter of days instead of a matter of a week or two. Leaving the area less guarded.

3: a man is caught in a trap layed by bandits, he needs your help to free his leg but you have no clue when the bandits will show up and you want to be far away when they do and you will have to help him walk

4: A survivor comes wandering in claiming that some bandits had taken his wife and daughter... you don't know if the man is telling the truth but there's little time if they have them. Do you try to help or leave the man to do it himself with no weapons. you also have some survivors to protect.

5: you find a box of supplies but a small group of survivors have already claimed it, they have no guns and your group does. both groups need the supplies and there is only enough for one group to make use of it. do you take it? or leave it to the group that might not survive anyway with no weapons.

6: your car breaks down in a dangerous part of the city, luckily an old woman is passing with a working car, you ask for petrol but she will not part with it, if you want the fuel or car you will have to kill this person..she is old and wont survive longer than a younger healther person anyway right?

7: a young mother and her young child is roaming the empty street, its clear she is distressed and his little knowledge of survival, you are sleeping in a near by building, laying low to avoid detection by any zombies in the area. you could go out and get her but you would give up your secure spot and probably be responsable for both her and the young child from then on which presents all kinds of problems..or you let them pass by knowing deep down that they probably wont survive much longer.

8: theres an opening to escape you and your family are inside your home, a truck with survivors offers one spot to you only. you can tell your family that you'll go find help and come back but you really wont, basically leave them to save yourself or stay.

9: you own child has injured his/her leg, recently you outcast another young member of the group because of the same reason as it would slow you down. now some of the group expect you to do the same with your own child.


I hate to reference T4 but he makes the point: 0:35

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dy5oTJajGOk[/yt]

[Jorick]

I'll give a couple of scenes and see how you think you would handle them. these will all be based on a zombie outbreak to be easier.

1: A teenage girl is banging on a window for help, she has barricaded her bedroom from a few zombies outside but more in the street are taking notice of the noise, they will get through in a matter of a minute or two. your are armed with a basic melee weapon and are across the street trying to sneak past the horde.
now this presents an opportunity, they are distracted by this girl you can escape in safety or you can attempt to enter the house and get her out but there's little time to decide. Understand you will be in earshot of hearing her been torn apart if you leave her.

I'd leave her to her fate and escape. It's not worth the risk to myself to help this stranger.

2: You are held up in a pretty secure location but are running low on food and supplies when a small group of survivors come knocking asking for help, one is injured but claims it to be from a car accident down the road. the group consists of a grown man, an old man his daughter and her young son.
There won't be enough supplies for all of you meaning that some of the group will have to risk going out looking in a matter of days instead of a matter of a week or two. Leaving the area less guarded.

Nope, they're getting the hell out of my area. I don't care what the claim for the injury is, no way I would be wasting food AND medical supplies on these people. The best I would do for them is suggest any nearby location where they might find a place to hole up for themselves.

3: a man is caught in a trap layed by bandits, he needs your help to free his leg but you have no clue when the bandits will show up and you want to be far away when they do and you will have to help him walk

Honestly, I would be more likely to be a bandit than to be a random guy wandering around. But this case, again, I would have to leave the guy to his fate. It's not worth potentially getting yourself killed by bandits and then having to support some idiot who got caught in a trap.

4: A survivor comes wandering in claiming that some bandits had taken his wife and daughter... you don't know if the man is telling the truth but there's little time if they have them. Do you try to help or leave the man to do it himself with no weapons. you also have some survivors to protect.

Depending on my stockpile of weaponry, I might give the guy a pistol and wish him good luck. But no, I wouldn't risk my own life and thus the lives of whoever I care about protecting just for this guy. It could be a trap for all I know. Not worth the risk.

5: you find a box of supplies but a small group of survivors have already claimed it, they have no guns and your group does. both groups need the supplies and there is only enough for one group to make use of it. do you take it? or leave it to the group that might not survive anyway with no weapons.

That other group is SOL. Seriously, how could anyone be stupid enough to not gather guns when they know it's a zombie apocalypse? My group > others, so those supplies are totally mine. I won't kill any of them if they don't do anything stupid, and I'd give them helpful advice like "hey idiots, get guns."

6: your car breaks down in a dangerous part of the city, luckily an old woman is passing with a working car, you ask for petrol but she will not part with it, if you want the fuel or car you will have to kill this person..she is old and wont survive longer than a younger healther person anyway right?

I'd threaten her with my weaponry, and if she doesn't give up the car then she dies or gets injured. Again, in a zombie apocalypse, my survival > everyone else.

7: a young mother and her young child is roaming the empty street, its clear she is distressed and his little knowledge of survival, you are sleeping in a near by building, laying low to avoid detection by any zombies in the area. you could go out and get her but you would give up your secure spot and probably be responsable for both her and the young child from then on which presents all kinds of problems..or you let them pass by knowing deep down that they probably wont survive much longer.

Sucks for them, not worth the burden and risk to help them. Millions of other mothers and young children have probably died by this point in the zombie outbreak, why should I take special care of yet another set?


These are all easy answers. As I said before, in an apocalyptic situation there is one simple fact: survival is all important. Anything that would compromise your own chances of survival is a stupid risk to take. Humanity is a useless luxury when you're fighting to survive.

[mdk]

I skimmed the first page because I'm lazy but.... who says survival isn't a human instinct? We human beings show compassion, yes, but we also kill one another -- you know what they say about the first human skeletons having arrowheads in them. We're shielded from necessity in the first world.... maybe THAT's losing your humanity.

Food for thought.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Whilst playing the walking dead game a question arose. As we spotted supplies left in a car, half the survivors said we should leave because it probably belongs to other surivors and half wanted to take them all.

I choose to take them even when the little girl character questioned wasnt it wrong in which another character replied its not about morality its about survival now.
This made me feel bad because we had spent most of the game fighting people who gave up their humanity for survival, what they had done was sick and wrong and I tried to show others that it was but then to take the supplies was against what I said but it was too good to pass up. I went against my judgment to survive but it left me feeling really bad.

So the question is humanity or survival? is it ok to give up what makes us human like morality to survive or is remaining human the real battle even if it means loosing survival.

how much does humanity and morality mean to you? more than life? You know in survival situations like the apocalypse there would be people who give up anything human to survive and take advantage of others.

I need honest answers dont just jump straight to of course im a shinning knight i wouldnt think twice about throwing my survival away for others, even the shinning knight thinks twice about things. How many times have we seen sombody in trouble but not stepped in because we fear for ourselves.

Humanity & Morality > Survival

When you want to survive ask yourself why are you surviving? What's the point? If it's not to create or at least a enjoy a kind and compassionate world, or at least individuals there is really no point to living.

Ok what about if you see other survivors in trouble? perhaps a family but theres a big chance if you go into help you or others with you might get injured. As with the walking dead I encounted cannibals who thought it ok to eat other survivors and bandits who kidnapped a child from a mother and nobody knows what happened to her.

Wouldnt it be best to hunt these people down to stop others walking into a trap even if it puts you in harms way? and when it comes to survival when does survival become exploiting others pain and misfortune to survive, if people plead to let them into your safe area or litterally be eaten alive by zombies or captured and god knows what by bandits but the bad thing is more mouths to feed.

In a world gone mad dont we need people willing to uphold good values you can still survive and kill those who want to harm you. If not then simply the strong and violent and evil people will survive whilst the innocent wont even get a chance, the children especially. In the end of the world we still need people willing to act selfless for the survival of others above themselves.

People are evil, vicious, cruel, selfish and sadistic inside. A individual who has good values inside truly is rare, most people are 'good' due to the laws, rules and regulations put in place so vicious cruel people do not destroy civilization in the goal to gain power over one another. Civilizations and communities are destroyed when people are left unregulated with no restrictions, the only reason humanity accepted these rules was to prevent it's own extinction.

That being said, I'd like to believe that I'd do the right thing even in the worst case scenario, and I certainly don't believe that the fact that my life is on the line makes it okay to abandon my humanity. You're going to die someday anyways, so I think living a good life that you can be proud of is more important than living a long life. Whether or not my behavior would reflect this is another matter entirely, though. I honestly can't say. I don't think anyone could, really, none of us has had the chance to find out.

No one can really say for sure they'd do what they would answer by bellow, fear, impulses and many other factors take over far more than you think they would.

-Your family/friends/whatever are trapped by zombies. You know that trying to save them will most likely just get you killed too. Do you go after them, even if it means dying with them, or do you try to live with the fact that you abandoned them?

I would not be able to live with myself knowing I had left them to die. I would honestly do my best to save them or die trying. This applies to saving any person for me, but I would have even more motivation than typically to save those close to me but regardless I could never in good concious leave someone to die like that.

-One of your party members has been bitten. Do you shoot him now, denying him his last few hours and putting his blood on your hands, but saving him from a lot of pain, life as a zombie, and potentially infecting more of your friends, or do you let the infection spread and try to deal with him when he's turned?

Let the person choose, do they want to be shot now or later.

If shot later though, I'll make to do it after they die but before they turn so there's still no risk involved in them turning. Either way though they will be shot in the head at some point, unless if they for some reason want to be let outside instead, which I will grant but make sure they are just another zombie in the horde and not given them a way to get into our guarding camp.

-You've established a stronghold and are safe from the infected for now, but supplies are running low. Someone approaches seeking to join your group, and his skills would be invaluable for foraging, greatly increasing the group's chances for surviving longer, but he looks to be wounded. He swears it's from broken glass, but one of your party members thinks it looks like he's been bitten. Do you kill him, despite the chance that he's telling the truth, thus saving your party for now but becoming a murderer and losing a potential resource, or do you take the risk and accept him?

I would say he needs to have his wound checked first, if it turns out to be a zombie I'll do the same as I answered for the previous question.
If he isn't bitten he is free to join us.

If he refuses to be tested he'll still be allowed in but under close watch, if it turns out to be a bite then the second he falls dead from infection (but before he turns) we're blasting a hole through his head.

-Or even the example you provided, finding a cache of supplies. The fact that it's left alone means that there's a good chance whoever owned it is dead, so by leaving it you're needlessly risking your party's well-being, but if the supplies are in fact vital to someone else, you've probably just cost them their lives.

In the game case specificly the car seemed to recent, and with the lights still on he seemed very likely this was someone else's stash and it was left behind. In that case I chose not to take it, but typically where it would of been abondened for a while then I would of taken it, by that point the people are either dead, ditched it or realise it won't be there if they ever do come back.

1: A teenage girl is banging on a window for help, she has barricaded her bedroom from a few zombies outside but more in the street are taking notice of the noise, they will get through in a matter of a minute or two. your are armed with a basic melee weapon and are across the street trying to sneak past the horde.
now this presents an opportunity, they are distracted by this girl you can escape in safety or you can attempt to enter the house and get her out but there's little time to decide. Understand you will be in earshot of hearing her been torn apart if you leave her.

Is there any route I can take to save her? Like climb up some stairs, smash a window and then grab her hand and run? In that case yes I would save her. But if it is a case where there saving her is the impossible, I would sadly leave. I would give my life to save her despite her being a stranger, but if there is no actual way to save her, she's dead no matter what I do it's better I don't die as well.

My statement above about not being able to live with myself for letting someone die is true, but I won't be as hard on myself if there was literally no way to save her.

2: You are held up in a pretty secure location but are running low on food and supplies when a small group of survivors come knocking asking for help, one is injured but claims it to be from a car accident down the road. the group consists of a grown man, an old man his daughter and her young son.
There won't be enough supplies for all of you meaning that some of the group will have to risk going out looking in a matter of days instead of a matter of a week or two. Leaving the area less guarded.

I would defelently let the group in and work with them. In the case of a zombie apocalypse my main goal will always be to rebuild. Get a colony and community going, we rebuild, resettle, have the benefit of manpower, team work, co-operation and structure/order among us.

As for the bite though, I would react to that the same way I responded above to other cases where someone may be bitten. If the other survivours insisted he let the bitten guy stay though even if bitten. I'd try to explain it to them, if they don't listen we'd keep him under close watch and shoot him the second he does turn. Hopefully by that point they relise what being bitten really means. If not, I will let them leave if they want to.

3: a man is caught in a trap layed by bandits, he needs your help to free his leg but you have no clue when the bandits will show up and you want to be far away when they do and you will have to help him walk

Free him, nothing to debate here.

4: A survivor comes wandering in claiming that some bandits had taken his wife and daughter... you don't know if the man is telling the truth but there's little time if they have them. Do you try to help or leave the man to do it himself with no weapons. you also have some survivors to protect.

Just because it may be true I would help, and if I'm with others I would let any other survivors who want to help come with us as well.

5: you find a box of supplies but a small group of survivors have already claimed it, they have no guns and your group does. both groups need the supplies and there is only enough for one group to make use of it. do you take it? or leave it to the group that might not survive anyway with no weapons.

First I would negotiate and try to have our groups merge so we become one bigger and stronger group.

If that fails though we let them have the supplies, it is rightfully theirs.

6: your car breaks down in a dangerous part of the city, luckily an old woman is passing with a working car, you ask for petrol but she will not part with it, if you want the fuel or car you will have to kill this person..she is old and wont survive longer than a younger healther person anyway right?

She's a bitch but we won't harm her. We'll let her leave with the gas unless if it was life or death. In which case we would take just enough gas to make it to safety, but I wouldn't harm her in order to get said gas.

7: a young mother and her young child is roaming the empty street, its clear she is distressed and his little knowledge of survival, you are sleeping in a near by building, laying low to avoid detection by any zombies in the area. you could go out and get her but you would give up your secure spot and probably be responsable for both her and the young child from then on which presents all kinds of problems..or you let them pass by knowing deep down that they probably wont survive much longer.

I would help them, no question in my kind about it.

8: theres an opening to escape you and your family are inside your home, a truck with survivors offers one spot to you only. you can tell your family that you'll go find help and come back but you really wont, basically leave them to save yourself or stay.

I would have the youngest child take that slot in the truck.

Unless if there is a possibility we can all live and putting anyone on the truck means we will never see them again.
In which case I give anyone in my family the option to leave if they want, the youngest takes priority out of those who want to go.
The rest would then try to find a way out together.

9: you own child has injured his/her leg, recently you outcast another young member of the group because of the same reason as it would slow you down. now some of the group expect you to do the same with your own child.

I would never of outcasted anyone for that reason.

However being hypothetical, no I wouldn't throw out my own child.

I skimmed the first page because I'm lazy but.... who says survival isn't a human instinct? We human beings show compassion, yes, but we also kill one another -- you know what they say about the first human skeletons having arrowheads in them. We're shielded from necessity in the first world.... maybe THAT's losing your humanity.

Food for thought.

So basically you mean humanity = survival

In which case I have to agree, I don't like the term 'humanity' being used a good term because it impies most humans are good and pleasent people when infact it's the exact opposite that is true.

[Atlas Graveyard]

I skimmed the first page because I'm lazy but.... who says survival isn't a human instinct? We human beings show compassion, yes, but we also kill one another -- you know what they say about the first human skeletons having arrowheads in them. We're shielded from necessity in the first world.... maybe THAT's losing your humanity.

Food for thought.

thats not what im on about, im not saying to preserve your humanity you cant kill. Man kills man what im saying is at what point does a person loose their humanity to survive. when do you sacrifice things you hold to survive when does a person stop caring about others and murder people for supplies and turn your backs on others suffering for yourself. when does a person turn their back on people been tortured, abused raped or whatever to save themselves. Whne they purposely kill others to gain their supplies, take advantage of people and generally do things anyone would consider wrong.

I believe anybody willing to do any of these things is not worth saving themselves if survival is their only concern they're a risk to anyone and everyone they come across and will spread nothing but more missery where they go. Taking advantage and abusing others to survive.
They are scum like anyother bandit and like murders or crimminals they dont deserve to be allowed to survive.

People in that situation need alittle humanity, they need to save others in need, otherwise what is the point in humanity surviving if all its going to amount to is raider gangs preying on the weak and everyman for themselves. A real survivor kills bandits and anyone out to harm others and at the same time protects those who need protecting and help others.

[Gwazi Magnum]

thats not what im on about, im not saying to preserve your humanity you cant kill. Man kills man what im saying is at what point does a person loose their humanity to survive. when do you sacrifice things you hold to survive when does a person stop caring about others and murder people for supplies and turn your backs on others suffering for yourself. when does a person turn their back on people been tortured, abused raped or whatever to save themselves and is it worth it.

In my opinion this point is never.

The moment someone does choose to sacrifice morality, values and goodness for the sake of personal pleasure and survival is they day they themselves are no longer deserving of the air they breathe.

[Dudel]

It's actually quite human to be a selfish and greedy little bastard at the expense of others. Nothing lost. Just typical. Quite frankly, the only people that would matter to me would be me, and mine. Myself, and my family/friends. Everyone else would find themselves, well, maybe not as a "target" but certainly looked at with less compassion. If I don't know you, I don't have qualms with taking your shit.

---------- Post added at 10:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:25 AM ----------

1: A teenage girl is banging on a window for help, she has barricaded her bedroom from a few zombies outside but more in the street are taking notice of the noise, they will get through in a matter of a minute or two. your are armed with a basic melee weapon and are across the street trying to sneak past the horde.
now this presents an opportunity, they are distracted by this girl you can escape in safety or you can attempt to enter the house and get her out but there's little time to decide. Understand you will be in earshot of hearing her been torn apart if you leave her.

Eh... all I have is a basic melee weapon? A part of me says I should try and help, but the smarter part of me is saying that suicide doesn't help anyone. If I was better situated to handle the situation, I could see myself helping... but I'm not in a position to do so. And I certainly do not want to hear the girl being slaughtered, but you've left me with little options.

Of course there's always another way. There has to be SOMETHING to do besides try and play TF2 Spy vs Zombie Hoard. The first thing that comes to mind is fire, explosions, or some kind of diversion sound. I don't have to "save" the girl, per say, just sorta fake like I tried.

2: You are held up in a pretty secure location but are running low on food and supplies when a small group of survivors come knocking asking for help, one is injured but claims it to be from a car accident down the road. the group consists of a grown man, an old man his daughter and her young son.
There won't be enough supplies for all of you meaning that some of the group will have to risk going out looking in a matter of days instead of a matter of a week or two. Leaving the area less guarded.

My first thought is less about the food resources and more "Are these people trying to use my empathy organ against me?" I'd check them out, first, but I don't see why we couldn't band together. Going out to get more supplies as a larger group is better, anyway. This isn't about humanity, this is about safety in numbers.

Oh, and we quarantine the injured person until we know for certain that said person isn't a threat to everyone else.

3: a man is caught in a trap layed by bandits, he needs your help to free his leg but you have no clue when the bandits will show up and you want to be far away when they do and you will have to help him walk

That would depend on the setting. If the area is one where people can easily hide, I'm not going to stick around for too long. I don't need that shit. I'd probably end up taking the guy's stuff. :\

If it was a more open area, the chance of seeing anyone sneaking up on me while I'm trying to help is much lower. The bandits might have cars, or something, but I could still see them from a good ways away, and as a result I'd help the guy out... at least until it became less favorable for me to do so.

4: A survivor comes wandering in claiming that some bandits had taken his wife and daughter... you don't know if the man is telling the truth but there's little time if they have them. Do you try to help or leave the man to do it himself with no weapons. you also have some survivors to protect.

Me and mine take priority. I'll leave the guy a weapon, perhaps, but that would be the extent of it. If people from my group want to help, they are more than welcome to, but if they go, they risk being separated from the core group. Their choice to help or stay, but I'm not risking the people I'm in charge of for some dude I don't know.

5: you find a box of supplies but a small group of survivors have already claimed it, they have no guns and your group does. both groups need the supplies and there is only enough for one group to make use of it. do you take it? or leave it to the group that might not survive anyway with no weapons.

We combine forces? I say "fuck you there isn't enough for everyone." We can make that last. Besides, more people helps us in the long run. "We have guns, you have food. Lets work together!" If they don't want to work together, I might be forced to assert myself and take what they have, but I'd rather reach a compromise first.

6: your car breaks down in a dangerous part of the city, luckily an old woman is passing with a working car, you ask for petrol but she will not part with it, if you want the fuel or car you will have to kill this person..she is old and wont survive longer than a younger healther person anyway right?

Why wont she share? My first question would be "Why not?" Besides, I don't want a car anyway. I'd want a bike. Easier to maneuver in the abandoned city. Shouldn't be in the city during an apocalypse, anyway, that's just stupid.

If it broke down to "me or her" I'd just take some. I wouldn't kill the woman, but I would subdue her enough so I could get what I needed. There isn't a need to kill the person.

7: a young mother and her young child is roaming the empty street, its clear she is distressed and has little knowledge of survival, you are sleeping in a nearby building, laying low to avoid detection by any zombies in the area. you could go out and get her but you would give up your secure spot and probably be responsable for both her and the young child from then on which presents all kinds of problems..or you let them pass by knowing deep down that they probably wont survive much longer.

Firstly, I don't know jack shit "deep down." You aren't me. Don't make assumptions. Besides that, people can be taught how to survive. They wouldn't be a liability for long after pulling them into what would now be a group of three. Besides, human companionship is needed to keep one from going insane. There are other things involved in this, as well, but we'll let them go.

8: theres an opening to escape you and your family are inside your home, a truck with survivors offers one spot to you only. you can tell your family that you'll go find help and come back but you really wont, basically leave them to save yourself or stay.

I wouldn't lie. I'd tell them I'm fucking off.

BUT FIRST, I'd try and reason with the group to allow me and my entire group, and not just me. My family, though, if it came down to me or them... I'd choose me. Wouldn't lie. I'd tell them I wasn't coming back.

9: you own child has injured his/her leg, recently you outcast another young member of the group because of the same reason as it would slow you down. now some of the group expect you to do the same with your own child.

Lets, for argument sake, say "my own child" is more "a child I've recently taken under my wing" or "adopted" in this time of need. Firstly speaking, we DO NOT just abandon people because they are injured. Slowing the group down is going to happen when people are out of shape, when they lack food, all kinds of stuff. If we dropped every person who couldn't keep up with a certain extreme pace, we'd be left with very few people in the group. I'd have a major problem with my group turning on itself, as well. Our group? We do not treat ourselves in that manner, just others.

[D!RT]

Easy topic: The only reason morality exists in the first place is because people were willing to commit to the necessity of survival.

You can sit here and say, "Oh, I'd never do that," or "That's evil. We have to be better than that," but a fundamental fact of the matter is this; Acting and speaking are two different things, entirely.

You can say that you wouldn't steal food in your travels through a post-apocalyptic landscape; but what would your answer to the question be if you haven't eaten for a week? I'm willing to bet that this sort of extreme hunger would be enough to sway your decision.

You're hard-wired for survival. It is your primary instinct. If you choose to abandon that for a man-made code of conduct, you've got some hard-lived lessons to learn.

[Blue Tempest]

Id like to treat others as I would be treated. We can say that we would choose the path of survival, but what if we were on the opposite side of the situation? What if we were the ones that needed the help? Besides, I'd probably put a bullet inside the head's of people like Jorick in such situations cause clearly they only care about themselves and I'd never be able to turn my back on them.

((OOC: Not YOU personally Jorick, I just mean people like that in those situations))

[Sanquin]

Most morality only applies to society for me. I would have no problem with stealing, taking advantage of others, or killing to defend my own safety. I wouldn't just off any survivor I came across, but I damn as hell would if they tried to steal from me or attack me. I wouldn't just trust a stranger to team up with either. Far as I know he/she wants to just take advantage of me at a vulnerable moment.

So yea...survival and safety first, offensive power after that. Means of transport other than walking after that. And finally, morality in last place somewhere. As in a world like that it's true survival of the fittest.