Interaction is better than any plot

**Kadaeux** · 11-12-2012

Originally Posted by Kestrel

And one of those two things are, without a doubt, going to happen. I mean, let's just say that fighting the dragon solo in my example is your definition of naval line formations :P Railroad or not they don't really have a choice.

Also yes, all those arguments I covered, it's right there kad :P

No, because you're trying to describe plot as existing. It doesn't when you're dealing with players until AFTER it happens.

And if you think that with your example you've had a rather tame bunch of players of late

I shall have to speak to them about shaking you up >

**Alphakoka** · 11-12-2012

Originally Posted by Kadaeux

And if you think that with your example you've had a rather tame bunch of players of late

I shall have to speak to them about shaking you up >

You called?

Yup, rather than plot, a GM can only gave major points.

Going by Kestrel's dragon example:

GM: "All right, you guys are screwed, here's a dragon!"

The players have option of running away or trying to fight the dragon. And, while most likely the GM has something to follow up with both, you still can't decide which will happen until the player do them.

**Kestrel** · 11-12-2012

No I don't :P

Originally Posted by Kestrel

Because as is that loldragon makes people interact. Those interactions tie both characters and players together. The characters being together gives a roleplay direction. The players being together adds up to a game's survivability. How 'complex' the resulting plot is should depend on the characters involved and their relations and interactions.

And by all means do shake things up, Alpha. Lyzan just killed the character I intended to make a final boss, so I could use some extension :P

**Shon Harris** · 11-12-2012

Originally Posted by Brovo

Plot is flavouring you add to a steak called "interaction" where it concerns role playing. It's best used to sprinkle some extra stuff on. Not to be the direction players use. The direction should be taken and driven by the players.

In plot terminology: You create the exposition, and then the players choose whether they want to pursue the rising action or abandon it to find a new thing to do.

In practical application: You have a zombie RP about hunkering down and surviving. Instead the players choose to go find fuel and a working plane/boat to cross the Pacific and get to an island. Maybe Hawaii. So they also start looking for naval charts and someone who has the knowledge of the seas, then partway through they find out fuel is useless so they choose to head far, far north instead, and start creating a convoy of farms in the south and housing in the north where most survivors go to hide, hoping that cold affects their joints, or...

See where I'm going with this?

A plot can be used, it just doesn't have to be. In the same way you could use a plot for a video game, but you don't have to. You could just create a sandbox like Garrys Mod and let the modders and players create their own adventures, ideas, pursue their own goals... Last I checked GMod sold over 1,000,000 copies as an indie title. I'd say that formula works. And since RP's are more like games than literature... It works for RP's too.

Hell, pick up any copy of D&D. You could just simulate battles for no reason, or explore an open world with no plot, no conflicts no stories and go from there. Anything is possible. It's the one gem that truly puts it aside from literature or most gaming outlets; RPing is whatever you make of it, and the only thing you need to make RPing work is interaction with other people. Be it through nations, character, narrative... Anything. It's just that characters and nations are typically the most common way we express ourselves, or our imagination in role plays. So...

#1: ...Okay, so you're arguing... For what? That's literally what I stated. Plot is not required.

#2: ...Okay, here is where I think you are confusing plot for continuity. You can have exciting action sequences and what not arranged in a series of events, and not have a plot. This is a plot. RP's can completely disregard it or throw it away at any time for a new one, or simply not have one. You can have battles... For no reason. And it's perfectly fine. Honest!

Now that we've clarified that you can do any scene or series of scenes without a plot, IE without a plan, IE without rigid structure, everything you've argued here... Can be applied... Without a plot.

A plot by literary standards is merely "everything acts for the greater narrative." That's it. Characters, scenes, relationships, everything is enslaved to the narrative. It's optional. You don't need a plot to save the world in an RP. The characters don't have to act within a narrative. Everything I've done has repeatedly, and demonstrable proven to me, over and over, that a greater narrative only enslaves characters. It railroads them. It forces them to do as you please, instead of doing what is natural.

Plots are not, in any manner of speaking, whatsoever necessary for an RP to succeed. If they were, in any manner whatsoever, then Nation RP's as they presently exist?... Couldn't.

End of story.

I'm not so certain how we are not agreeing here. My metaphor in the Obscured Figure was meant to illustrate the relationship between Plot, Character, and Direction. The Plot, in my eyes, need not be stressed, because as Kestrel and Kada are now discussing, a story will form itself naturally. However, laying down a few things along the way helps to establish possible segments to that story and offers some direction. In a very expansive world, one limited only by our imaginations, offering some possible foundations for how things could go is important. It lets players see that all is possible in this place, so they can decide just how they can/should engage with that. Sticking to the Zombie Apocalypse theme, should the GM find players slowing down a bit in their deciding where next to go/what next to do, it can be useful to nudge things toward what the GM could imagine happening next. Basically writing a very loose idea at how the story may continue, but leaving it so the players need to fill things out and see just how far they go. I see it as the GM producing that initial burst of energy that gets things on their way to ever-expanding.

I don't think Plot is necessary and I hope that was clear in my first post. I do, however, believe Plot is what gives us some reason to actually take part in this world. We see a blank canvas and it takes us a lot of energy to put anything truly coherent down. Even quick sketches seem off, hazy, and not quite related. Once we get some structured ideas though, maybe a theme we're finding some passion about, we start to really get some momentum. I see having a loose Plot as offering that starter-structure, that adrenaline boost when things slow down. Like you said, if Roleplay were the dish, Plot would be the seasoning. We don't need it, really, but by using the proper amount of it we can create a refreshing experience with the dish.

Now, again like the dish, obviously we don't need to use Plot. We don't have to do anything. But, personally, there's no chance I'm going to just start eating some plain steak or chicken for that pure meaty flavour (which, in reality, I would avoid doing even with seasonings). I get that hint of something else though, that scent, or pick up on a flavour I hadn't expected -- now I'm interested. Garry's Mod experiences ample success, of course, I've seen it when RPing there. But, using that example, you should remember its forerunners. GMOD inherited many of the RP Communities left homeless as The Specialist RP sunk. Members of those the communities had experiences with that potential, and now we have some pretty similar frameworks in maps/systems (though the new engine has allowed some dreams to be realized). Even before TSRP there were the original games these mods stemmed off of. Half Life (2) gave a really great perspective at what could be done in that world. TSRP/GMOD took it as a suggestion, at times using those ideas, but usually branching new stories from that initial creative energy. But, all in all, there are many unsuccessful communities in GMOD, as there were in TSRP. Many can become so convoluted with a few peoples' stories that others feel disconnected and forget what potential drew them in. This is when having some unique premise is useful. That loose beginning from which people can be inspired allows us to offer later direction, even in Sandbox worlds. In TSRP we would find people owning businesses, others owning gangs, and things would actually hit a peaceful balance. Players got skilled in dealing drugs without cops noticing, and gangs made allegiances with one another so no one was really conflicting. It got dull, really. Low and behold a few people looked at the broader view and wondered what if their gang grew in this time of peace into a para-military, something with hard/specific values, how would that effect the balance of power? They asked questions that could create a compelling story. The best part was that they couldn't truly anticipate others' reactions. Opposing gangs might avoid the para-military on the surface, but individual members might react and set off the powder keg. It created new direction and inspiration. This might not be a Plot, it's much too loose, but it begins with a story's premise, it come when needed and gets the hell out of the way when not, and should things come to a close it would wrap up with some meaning. Without any of this people would interact. Very true. But I feel offering some obscure Direction, something similar to a vague, player-articulated Plot, offers some inspiration and creates a relationship between GM and Player.

**Hagazussa** · 11-12-2012

#1: ...Okay, so you're arguing... For what? That's literally what I stated. Plot is not required.

I am not arguing, I am stating my own opinions. And what I am saying is that a plot is not required but it is preferable.

#2: ...Okay, here is where I think you are confusing plot for continuity. You can have exciting action sequences and what not arranged in a series of events, and not have a plot. This is a plot. RP's can completely disregard it or throw it away at any time for a new one, or simply not have one. You can have battles... For no reason. And it's perfectly fine. Honest!

I am about as interested in battles as I am in your condescending attitude. My point is not to have actions sequences vs talking, often a plot can be made up of talking. I am not opposed to battle in a RPG but it is not one of the elements I find the most interesting and a battle for no reason would make absolutely no sense to me. Now a fight scene do not have to be a part of some grand scheme or world shattering events, it could be a simple fight over the affections of a girl, but there have to be some reason for it. Also a plot do not need to be epic for there to be a plot in the RPG.

Now that we've clarified that you can do any scene or series of scenes without a plot, IE without a plan, IE without rigid structure, everything you've argued here... Can be applied... Without a plot.

A plot do not need to be a huge planned out thing, it can emerge as one go along, not all plots are rigid. But off course you can do a RP completely random, but that is not a way I prefer to do it.

A plot by literary standards is merely "everything acts for the greater narrative." That's it. Characters, scenes, relationships, everything is enslaved to the narrative. It's optional. You don't need a plot to save the world in an RP. The characters don't have to act within a narrative. Everything I've done has repeatedly, and demonstrable proven to me, over and over, that a greater narrative only enslaves characters. It railroads them. It forces them to do as you please, instead of doing what is natural.

Really for I have been rolepalying for 15 years and have never had this experience. A plot is not a rigid plan that is pre scrited, a plot is some idea of what is happening and what the story is about, that do not need to railroad anything.

Plots are not, in any manner of speaking, whatsoever necessary for an RP to succeed. If they were, in any manner whatsoever, then Nation RP's as they presently exist?... Couldn't.

Sure you can have RPGs with no plots, just as you can have a slice of life anime series with no plot, it can be fun and entertaining, it is just not what I prefer to do. I think perhaps you are over thinking this a bit.

**Kadaeux** · 11-12-2012