Collaborative Project, Contest Style

[Shon Harris]

Hello all,

My idea is fairly simple and pulls from a DeviantART project called 'Odyssey'. It's a successful project there, and it would bring more interest/attention toward RPG contests such as the WOTM/AOTM.

The contest would open as if any WOTM. We would have a theme, maybe requiring the story be something others could build from in the future. The winner's piece would be set in the Hall of Fame and all that some-such as is standard procedure. From here, however, it would enter another archive. The following AOTM would challenge artists to read the entry and interpret it however they please. They would be charged with creating an image that somehow reflects the piece. A third Contest would be created to take the ball from here. The Third Contest would begin the next rounds for the literary piece continuing off the winner of the last. This same contest would begin the visual contest as soon as the second winner was decided, and this entire process would continue through the Third Contest exclusively.

Why involve the WOTM/AOTM in the start? By starting off with these two well-known, long-lasting contests we play off ethos. People know and trust these contests. They actually wait for voting to end to take part. In addition, this could also bring more interest to these contests as well. In addition, by starting out with WOTM/AOTM, we would have the ability to advertise for the Third Contest a couple times in a notable way.

How will WOTM/AOTM participants do these contests, the Third, and whatever RP interests they have? We can intentionally plan the Third Contest's rotations in a way that would not interfere with the others, at least roughly. We can plan to begin the Third Contest's Writing component when the WOTM begins its voting phase. This way authors will have a chance to always participate, while simultaneously satisfying those anxiously awaiting the next WOTM. Artists may seem less focused on with the time choice, but I am not immediately aware of a way to give them the same benefit. Luckily, this contest is challenge-by-choice, and while the AOTM gives a few Themes and Components, this Third Contest literally creates a world to be reflected off. There will be no right or wrong answer for contestants, simply a vote for what writing is most compelling/makes sense to come next and what image brings the most essence from the writing.

A great way to also build enthusiasm and creativity is to set a lower maximum word count. While Casual/Advanced WOTM ranges from 500-3,500 words (1 page to 6 pages, Times New Roman, 12pt, Single-Spaced), the Third Contest might be better suited ranging from 600-900 words. By setting this range, we are asking members to submit 1-1.5 pages with the before-mentioned specs. This can entice people who may have less time, but still want to participate. It will also push people to really ride the tide of what was written before them instead of just passing it all up and severely hijacking the story. The aim would be to collaborate with the text. Past winners could even be spoken to about their ideas, if preferred, but the writers of each contest would have the creative freedom to poise things where they feel is best.

Now before I speculate too far about what could be, I'd like to hear what the community thinks. I believe this could bring together RPG's artists and writers in a collaborative way which we are not doing thus far. At this point things are separated with occasional overlap. This can challenge that trend and give RPG something to call its own as a community-creation.

[Aragorn]

That...sounds amazing. So much yes.

[Grif of Hearts]

I actually rather like this idea. It'd take a bit of effort, but I can see it working with RPG's current contests.

[Kagamine]

The idea is nice in theory, though running your own contest is a lot of work. I wonder if you'd be allowed to keep this in the Official section, or select staff for it. Hmm....

At any rate, one flaw in your plan really did jump out at me, though. This idea of a 600-900 word range. As a manager, I can tell you this is not what writers want to see. The word limit is not a requirement, it is a limit, and writers often struggle to fit their ideas into the limit. There are casual writers who enter advanced just because they can't trim their story below 1500 words. There are advanced writers who sometimes don't enter at all because they can't get below 3500 words. The range that you've proposed is only about half the already tricky casual limit, and I'm telling you now, it will only drive people away, as writing a quality short story of that length can indeed be challenging. You won't get much attention with such a restricting word range.

Speaking of restriction, that's another problem that looms over the Third Contest's head. People hate creative restriction, and the current set-up of this idea sort of reeks of it. If an AOTM contest were to have people create an image based off of a single WOTM winner's story (or two winners, technically, for casual and advanced), that's a huge amount of restriction. Being strongly limited to the content in only two stories could steer a lot of people away, since there's not nearly as much room for creativity as there is compared to a usual AOTM, plus there would be some artists who didn't like the stories, or even the theme altogether. You won't get many participants. On the other hand, I think a more including way of doing it would be to let users make images based off of stories by any of the WOTM winners, and then PM which entry it was to the AOTM account with their submission for the managers to include in the voting threads. (IE: Entry #3 inspired by OverlordRoo's casual Betrayal entry, or something of that nature.) It will not only allow much more room for creativity, but also differing submissions, as having too many entries look alike is another problem I've seen. Also, it'll finally put the much-ignored Hall of Fame thread to use.

Lastly, will this Third Contest, in it's final stage, be only for writing stories based off of winning AOTM entries? Personally I quite liked the idea of seeing art based off of writings, and I'm not sure why you'd want to limit it so that it can only be for writing. Then we'll just have two writing contests floating around the Guild. I think you could include more participants if you flip-flop what the contest is each month. One month, you will write a story based off of an AOTM entry, then the next, you create an image based off of a WOTM entry. It will do a better job at linking together and bringing more attention to both AOTM and WOTM that way, as well as look like more of a "third contest", rather than just "another writing contest".

[Shon Harris]

I am more than happy to answer your questions, and will, but as reference for others as they read this, please do check out The Odyssey on DeviantART. There are some questions that I believe would very easily be answered by simply glancing at that their version of this contest. It'd also exemplify the possible results here in our community.

The idea is nice in theory, though running your own contest is a lot of work. I wonder if you'd be allowed to keep this in the Official section, or select staff for it. Hmm....

Well, it'd be an Official Contest, and it'd even play off two others in its origin. Besides that I don't believe there are any exclusive memberships to bringing something to the Official Contest section beyond bringing a sustainable, potential-filled contest. This would be one of those. If there had been some exclusive expectation then things wouldn't of started all those months ago.

At any rate, one flaw in your plan really did jump out at me, though. This idea of a 600-900 word range. As a manager, I can tell you this is not what writers want to see. The word limit is not a requirement, it is a limit, and writers often struggle to fit their ideas into the limit. There are casual writers who enter advanced just because they can't trim their story below 1500 words. There are advanced writers who sometimes don't enter at all because they can't get below 3500 words. The range that you've proposed is only about half the already tricky casual limit, and I'm telling you now, it will only drive people away, as writing a quality short story of that length can indeed be challenging. You won't get much attention with such a restricting word range.

Flaw or challenge -- but a suggestion. Quick and dirty, my point here is that this contest is communal authorship. Selected pieces are elected by the community at large to create a truly collaborative piece of fiction. It is roleplay, except all authors are more intimately sharing this story, yet their interactions will surface through their explorations of the world they create. Word limits are to keep from a single person making this completely their own piece. This could be achieved through large, sweeping actions moving a character from walking down the street to seeing nuclear apocalypse, as well as extremely long segments by those authors. While it is hard to only write a page-page and a half, I know from being a contestant here and elsewhere, that this amount of material is doable. We are not asking for complete stories. People will be able to write branching off where the last began, or maybe even blanking out, starting a while after. Essentially, they'll give their rendition to what this story looks like, how it feels, how it's perceived, and where it's going. The project inspiring this enacted a 400 word limit and does very well. Since this is RPG, not an artists' guild, I would suggest we go higher by setting an expected range where pieces may be between a standard page and two pages. Long enough to make yourself felt and add your fantastic flavour, short enough where you're forced to really focus on the moment and can propel things in a direction you've imagined.

I'd also note, 600-900 words would very likely garnish more readers during voting periods. I genuinely wonder how many people read all of the WOTM entrees that are participants or simply voters. There are of course a dedicated handful, but we all must admit, the group isn't exactly huge. A range like this means that with 5 entrees people can expect to read 5-10 pages total, as opposed to 10-30 pages (based on 1000 word limit= ~1.5 pages, 3,500=~6 pages). People will be able to read these like inter-related flash-fictions that will take a minute. Writers will be challenged, I completely agree, but I believe they're capable.

Speaking of restriction, that's another problem that looms over the Third Contest's head. People hate creative restriction, and the current set-up of this idea sort of reeks of it. If an AOTM contest were to have people create an image based off of a single WOTM winner's story (or two winners, technically, for casual and advanced), that's a huge amount of restriction. Being strongly limited to the content in only two stories could steer a lot of people away, since there's not nearly as much room for creativity as there is compared to a usual AOTM, plus there would be some artists who didn't like the stories, or even the theme altogether. You won't get many participants. On the other hand, I think a more including way of doing it would be to let users make images based off of stories by any of the WOTM winners, and then PM which entry it was to the AOTM account with their submission for the managers to include in the voting threads. (IE: Entry #3 inspired by OverlordRoo's casual Betrayal entry, or something of that nature.) It will not only allow much more room for creativity, but also differing submissions, as having too many entries look alike is another problem I've seen. Also, it'll finally put the much-ignored Hall of Fame thread to use.

The WOTM origin would likely need to be operated in a way that would ensure success and consistency. The first piece chosen would need to be reasonably sized to be read by all future participants and would need to be pretty open. Another problem is that the WOTM does indeed have two branches, Casual and Advanced, and this would produce 2 starting pieces that could be totally unrelated. I'd solve this by putting these 2 pieces against each other in a vote to choose the origin story. The second-place would be the "Origin that Almost Was", kept note of in order to maybe implement in the future. People deserve recognition.

Restrictions. I'm sure people won't participate because they feel the world isn't quite what they wanted. I venture to guess that is what people feel like when they see a theme they don't really like either. But there will be people who want to participate. We both know that happens, always a few. I'd also point out that people will be able to decide a lot with each post. The original post could star a character racing to get to work on time. All the proposed stories could have what's next: 1) He gets to work, his boss fires him 2) He's gets to work and something unusual is happening 3) He gets hit by a car and is rushed to the hospital 4) A building collapses from a terrorist attack. People would choose whichever one they felt would be best, basically choosing the theme the story would maintain. If they chose 4, this could lead to a Red Dawn sort of story, or maybe this is just a single attack, and other authors may make the character enlist, become a terrorist, or the attack can really not shape them in any way. Hell, people could turn the story into a fantasy, so long as they make a great submission and it is voted in. There really is no restriction to theme or what sort of story this will be. It is our job as Managers (potential managers) to really push people to reach for the stars here.

Oh, and the AOTM. The point of this Contest is not to tie the AOTM to the WOTM forever. That is very doable with the current system, and we don't need a third contest to do something that's been done as a normal theme before. The point is to bring together elements already in both contests in a way we aren't doing. The Third Contest opens with a writing portion, Phase 1, (helped by the WOTM the first time around), the second portion, Phase 2, is the visual portion (assisted by the AOTM, first time around). After the first cycle, we'll have our first story and our first story-inspired image. The Third Contest would cycle again, Phase 1 for the next literary piece, then again, Phase 2 for the next image in response to that piece. It would continue on and on until we wrap up the current project. Participants would be able to create a large, collaborative story with imagery. They could speak to one another and plan a general idea, or go in alone and do something radical. The point is creation not winning. Phase 2 will have no restrictions except that it must respond to the chosen literary piece. It can be highly abstracted, contorted, or even just a mess of colours that illicit the same emotions of the piece. What you see as a restriction, and I totally get this, can also be a foundation for creativity. This is how most high school/college level art programs work (until your advanced studies, and often even then), assigning some sort of theme, and letting people respond.

Lastly, will this Third Contest, in it's final stage, be only for writing stories based off of winning AOTM entries? Personally I quite liked the idea of seeing art based off of writings, and I'm not sure why you'd want to limit it so that it can only be for writing. Then we'll just have two writing contests floating around the Guild. I think you could include more participants if you flip-flop what the contest is each month. One month, you will write a story based off of an AOTM entry, then the next, you create an image based off of a WOTM entry. It will do a better job at linking together and bringing more attention to both AOTM and WOTM that way, as well as look like more of a "third contest", rather than just "another writing contest".

We aren't understanding here. Phase 1, Literary work, branches off of itself. Tom writes the first literary piece, Jan makes an image from that in Phase 2, then Bill writes a second literary piece building from Tom's. The images need not be related to one another, except that they follow the attached literary piece. That being said, an author could be inspired by an image created, and that's just fine, but it should still push off the story of the previous piece. Here's an example:

Tom wrote about this businessman who works at this totalitarian corporation that seeks control of society through neural advertisements via implants in every citizen. This businessman is tormented by the ads and attempts to remove the implant. He realizes he's late for work, so after a failed attempt, he rushes there. On his way his vision begins to distort, advertisements haze in and out, and things start blurring into odd, morphing shapes and colours. Tom ends his segment with the businessman in panic.
Jan thinks the premise is cool, but sees the story as some guy driving to work. A bit dull. She attaches to the end though. Jan does a surreal photo-manipulation of a person looking at their hands their fingers melting into many different colours. The image is very surreal and abstract.
Bill sees read's Tom's piece and considers pushing the businessman to work, but he stops when he sees Jan's image. Bill decides to stick with the businessman a while. The piece Bill writes has the businessman continue in this psychedelic trip, describing fragments of the ads mixing with reality, and ends in the businessman crashing their vehicle during the confusion.

The idea is that writers will submit their work to the Third Contest, image-makers will read them and make images in response, and another part of the story will be written based off what we create. It will continue to make a communal story, both written and visualized.

[Kagamine]

Wait.

Wait.

Wait.

What?

You lost me as soon as you started calling this a "roleplay". It's clear that what you really had in mind for the idea and what I interpreted it as are completely different. Look, you can start a roleplay, or you can start a writing contest, but trying to combine the two... just doesn't sit well with me, and I don't expect it to do well. Roleplay and writing are very different beasts, after all. They have very different rules where it concerns creating something "quality". The idea itself also sounds very complicated. Even I'm not understanding how the whole thing is supposed to fit together- it just sounds like a complex process with lots of different pieces and parts, and the complexity of it will drive even more people away. And then, well, what will you do if one branch of the system fails to send anything in?

Speaking of which, do themes sometimes drive people away and make them feel limited? Yes, but a theme is far more including than a single story or image. There are many more ways to take it.

Also, you can't put a contest in the official section without admin support. Why did AOTM and WOTM start out in the official section? Because they were started by Contra Fates herself. I'm not sure what Contra Fates would say to this idea, but I wouldn't get your hopes up too high.

That aside, you're free to try this project of yours in the Gallery, but like I've already said, it seems extremely complicated, confusing and restricting, and I'm not sure how well it will go. Not that you aren't allowed to try, but, this is just what it looks like to me.

[Shon Harris]

I'd really like to have this thread be a place for building an idea into a better form. If the admins think there is potential, like Grif and Aragorn expressed, then let's talk about where we can make this feasible for the RPG community. Frankly, I really don't care if you don't believe this is a good idea, or a possible idea. I care about helping to give the community a new venue of expression and to reinvigorate the contests we currently have. I understand the process to getting things officiated because that is one of the primary functions of both my jobs. In reality, I build programs for groups ranging, on average, 20-60 people with funds requested through several channels, ultimately originating from the state. I help run art collectives, organizing an art journal, and exhibitions, while also building an advanced studies program primarily focused on Visual Arts and Narrative. Does this all seem out of place to say? Well it also feels out of place to be spoken to in a demeaning fashion, offered a high concentration of 'this isn't possible' and 'you don't understand processes'. If you have some constructive feedback, give it, if not, get out. If my tone is rigid it is because you've exhausted my patience and muddled what's meant to be a way to build the RPG community. Instead of slapping down the potential to better this place, why don't you come lend your thoughts to creation and not destruction? On that note, please, Kaga, if you feel or misread my metaphors in a way that urges you to get into dead-horse topics (I'm referring to the roleplay v. writing bit) then feel free to VM or PM me and I'd love to clarify what I mean. I'd rather have more constructive feedback here than the distraction of battling egos. Cool?

Let's get some more feedback about all of this guys.

[Kestrel]

Shon.

I understand you have experience in managing people and organising events. Same here. You have to understand that the audience you usually try to appeal to on RPG is really, really, really small. If you help organise an art expo, or I help organise a concert, we know there is always sufficient amount of people who want that. Most we have to worry about in terms of advertising is arranging artists and getting those posters with their names on it out. And I'm sorry Shon, but say that for example those posters would work for 50% of the potentially interested parties who see it on the street... It would work for 10% on the internet. Because people have much shorter attention spans simply and plenty other options because they are on the internet.

Same with your insistence to drive on concepts that are actually rejected by most of the target audience already. Then this last post of yours sounds to me like you're saying BUT I DON'T NEED TO LEARN ANATOMY! I'M AN ARTIST! I CAN HOLD A PENCIL AND I'M QUALIFIED TO FLY A PLANE! Which is really, really silly don't you agree?

Let me put it to you like this. The best way to go around creating a new project is to first analyse your potential market. Is there an unfulfilled desire, or a desire you think you can fulfil better than your future competitors? Yes? Good. Create that concept, then follow up on how to make it appeal and accessible to people. You're skipping that step entirely, while it should be your main focus. Don't let yourself to be driven into the I AM AN ARTIST I HAVE A PENCIL-corner.

Additionally you have to understand the hierarchy of the sections you're trying to get into work. I'm telling you this for a simple reason; the person who is going to have the final say in this is Contra. However, by posting it in suggestions, you're actually circumventing the current managers. In fact, you just told one of those managers off by explicitly stating you don't care about their input on whether it is possible. That's not helpful when you're trying to get it into that area. There are many complications to these contests you don't know, which others actually have first-hand experience with. Most of them related to audience. And on that note, dA is full of people who want to promote their selves and get their stuff out there. RPG is not. That is a major difference in audience which I can't believe you overlooked.

And look at where you posted this and then look at your last reply. This is suggestions, not the gallery or a social group. This isn't a workshop. This is the place where you get a go or no-go. You're not ready for that, Shon. You're just not.

[Shon Harris]

I can understand if my last post came off hot-headed. In all honesty, my experiences with Kaga have been few and far between, and somehow usually negative. Considering this I can see that my fuse was instantly shorter in responding to their posts. I will say, though, that my nerves are usually shot when concept is ignored and detail is emphasized. The concept is what is being suggested, the details can always be updated. Considering this, please understand my reaction.

The point of mentioning my background was intentionally useless, as I felt was the tone with which I was being spoken to. It is one thing to speak with experience, another to speak in a way assuming that we are the only one's with said experience (something I felt very clearly from Kaga's replies). Whatever I do in reality, or even here, really means very little. What I hope to do is what should be focused on.

When it comes to the needs of the community, I do see this as an opportunity to appease wants rousing in the sub-communities. I've seen a number of social groups and members wanting collaborative works, dedicated and progressing stories, etc. This idea would satisfy that need in a way that allows all to take part in, like the current OTMs, but leaves more than the flavour of that month. Kestrel, in my experience it's always been that simply doing an idea without first bringing it up was frowned upon. Like by doing such one was undercutting the ambitions of another. I saw such feelings roused when Foxes was trying to start the Writer's Underground. That's why I brought the idea here first. I thought by doing so, I was showing a nod of respect to the current OTM system rather than adding something that might just distract their participants. Thanks for the advice on that. I do hold a great deal of respect for most of the managers.

My goal was to do exactly what you're proposing. I posted the suggestion here to get the community's opinion about it. Suggestions, it makes sense, at least more than losing this to the sea of generalized 'Interest Checks'. This is an idea I feel responds to needs I'm seeing in a few social groups. There is a market there, and potentially with those already participating in the OTM circuit. I wouldn't suggest this if I didn't think others would actually want it or be more satisfied with their RPG experience with it. Frankly, when I post an idea, especially this one, I post it because I believe the idea has merit. Disregard me, or my place, if I'm ready or not, what should it matter if there are a few passionate people who are ready and can construct something from this idea? I realize now you meant the idea was not ready. Hah, of course. Apparently I missed the memo about creating an Unofficial Contest in whatever forum seems appropriate prior to asking permission to doing just that. I've already addressed this, but my miss understanding was more guided by an attempt to avoid stepping on toes.

Wish you'd posted this sooner Kestrel.

[love that panda]

It may be a little difficult to make work, but I love the idea! I hope to eventually see this up and running.