Character VS Plot

[KnightShade]

So sometimes these two elements of RPs are in direct conflict and my question is which side do you come down on?
Not in terms of prefering character driven or plot driven RPs but more would you betray the actions your character would take to advance the plot or are you more likely to jeopardize the plot for the sake of staying true to your character?
Those are the more extreme ends of the debate so you don't neccesarily have to come down one or the other.
My answer would be I used to try to never compromise my characters and if some one tried to force me to make them act differently I'd argue it and failing that leave the RP. I'm not as extreme as all that any more but I think I still come down quite firmly on the character side.

[Closetmonster]

I have to agree, KnightShade. I've found, to my detriment, that forcing a character to act outside of their chosen personality is a good way to lose hold of the character. I suppose some writers work within the plot and fit their characters to the story line. When working alone, I can do this. But then I go and do some silly thing like... offer a story idea to a bunch of strangers and they go and muck everything up! Next thing I know, my plot is more of a guideline and my main character is going belly up because he really doesn't like the girl he's supposed to and his horse has an attitude problem because of some imp up his butt. Then the storm hits and everything goes to hell in a handbasket.
At that point of time, I can only hold on and "feel" my way through it via the character. Is he the kind to leave the horse out to drown in an attempt to get rid of the imp, despite the fact that the horse is a pivotal part of the blood letting he'll need for the magic amulet later, or will he drag the beast inside his tent and get sat upon and break his leg? Either way, the story is gone and we're in uncharted territory.

Then again, that might be just exactly why RP is so fun.

[KnightShade]

The two main ways I've found to get around my adherence to character is one to make the character originally with the plot in mind or two because I make CSs which are often short they act more as a guideline. This means the character develops a little in the RP to become more complicated because afterall people aren't simple and have many competing emotions. This way they may adapt a little to the plot but I'll only ever do this if I can justify it with internal monologue and I won't do it after I think I've got a handle on the character.
Oh, and I love your way of describing GMing, you have this amazing story that works out perfectly in your head it's just a shame about the players . Tell me was this horse with an attitude problem and an imp where the sun doesn't shine part of an RP you where in because if it was I've got to see this.

[Kestrel]

Understand that first off, RP's aren't plot-driven. They're event-driven. Events and characters don't compromise for each other, ever. Characters can oppose a dominant direction within the RP, by the character desiring a different direction. Character and plot cannot oppose one another, because plot is the result of events and actions.

However... Events are more important, because events create reactions, which creates direction. Sure, your character doesn't have to CHANGE THEIR ENTIRE WAY OF THINKING but if your character decides to disagree with the main party and run off on his own to live a quiet life on a farm somewhere... Well, expect that plot-armour to wear thin, the evil overlord raiding your farm in the near future and your character either barely escaping, or deciding to fight which will result in their death or in being captured and held hostage to bargain the main party. At that point, main party could also decide to not go out-of-character and decide "fuck him" when the overlord wants to trade your life for one of the magic crystals. Which you will have to respect, along with the consequences for your character.

At some point you're going to have to deal with it that side-stories are nice and all but shouldn't distract too much from the main events. If you can deal with that, power to you. But also deal with the consequences.

[Closetmonster]

Tell me was this horse with an attitude problem and an imp where the sun doesn't shine part of an RP you where in because if it was I've got to see this.

I didn't have a story like that, but I did have a nice lil' story I GM'd back in '08 which had a mage turn his horse (who was one of the needed characters, dammit) into a two inch high steed, carried it around in his pocket, then managed to make it large again only it had lizard legs, then became bipedal. He was lucky the poor thing didn't die of shock. Actually, it might have gone that direction, had the story continued to progress. Then we'd have been forced to .. improvise. Undead pony?

At some point you're going to have to deal with it that side-stories are nice and all but shouldn't distract too much from the main events. If you can deal with that, power to you. But also deal with the consequences.

And that is the beauty of a very good RP. I've left many a RP when my character simply did not fit any longer. They went and got a new job, wandered off to gnaw on a bone in another part of the dungeon, or received a very solid sword thrust to the gut. Having to mold a character's actions to "events" is annoying. (LOL! Do realize I'm the one who voted "death before compromise!" I can only speak for myself and what I prefer.)

I don't want to argue semantics with you so I'll call this "story line" and include events and plot as subheadings, recognizing that the English language is very subjective and you may choose to have a specific dictionary/Harvard college definition of that term as well at which point I'd hope you'd put in what word you think better suits. Rather, I'll simplify the concern in my mind: for instance, in a RP where a relationship is necessary for the progression and climax of the story line outlined, one would hope the characters like one another. But when your character just can't help but think the love interest is an idiot and what is up with that booger hanging out of his/her nose? then there's not a whole lot you can do, other than scrap the whole character idea and either sacrifice your character to the alter of story line, at which point I feel like I'm being forced to watch reruns of Charlie the Unicorn with my eyelids taped to the Open position, or to bag it altogether. I've done both. In a story where the other players NEED for my character to be there, I'll do it, though I will very definitely hate it. I do my best to not get into that kind of situation, however. Team work can only drive a person so far.

[KnightShade]

I understand what you mean it that first bit about events and actions leading to plot, I guess what I mean is when plot is overly pre-determined not neccesairily as a driving force but as a direction to head in or location to aim for metaphorically speaking. I agree completly that it'd be stupid to create a character who is going to run off and farm rather than complete the quest but there's nothing wrong with creating one who has strong obligations to the fact that the GM is trying to lead you through the cavern of doom, past the lake of fear and into the valley of the shadow of death and who suggests they walk around them. That'd actually make for an interesting party argument lol. As for the consequences, well where's the fun in playing someone who can't get injured, tortured or die playing chicken with the GM or other players on these things can be fun. Like when the throw a punch but don't land it rule is used by another player I usually land it on me to see how far they'll go.

Edit: Ninja'd to my post

[Closetmonster]

I dub KnightShade as Expert Button Pusher. Only given to those who, in the line of duty to a fabulous RP, drop a cup of tea on the Prince changed Mouse's head during an important party and say, "oops!" just to see how the world will react when the main character is squished by Earl Grey.

[KnightShade]

Expert Button Pusher, I like that, I must steal it for my siggy. I did in one RP burn down another players house with the body of the son of the lord who was threatening to burn the town down inside, try to frame just about everyone for the lord's son's murder, kidnap one of the other characters adopted daughter, try to drive another character to drink himself to death (which may have worked) and I may have been the murderer in the first place I'm still not sure.

[Closetmonster]

Personally I love that kind of thing in my stories. It is the character driven story that often can make magic happen. That said, I can understand that some stories are just too "pre-determined" as you mentioned, to allow for it without a ruckus. So it's just a matter of not taking on stories that are like that so no one's toes are stepped on.

But it is super fun. Heh heh. I have RPd elsewhere for years and I loved it when the tables got turned, on either myself or those I played with. Characters show their mettle when crisis (story line, oh crap!) occurs. Sometimes, that is when the best things happen, actually.

[Kestrel]

Rather, I'll simplify the concern in my mind: for instance, in a RP where a relationship is necessary for the progression and climax of the story line

That's the problem. That is already a character-created event. Except this time they're predetermined, which is silly. Why can't the story progress if the love interest isn't actually gonna be a love interest? You could break up and have the opposing families at war, force the character to marry against their will, etc. Perhaps you have a Romeo&Juliet situations where the families are already at war and their love interest betraying them throws a character in such despration they join the war or motivate the family to take even more drastic measures.

If it is necessary, the RP wasn't flexible and/or prepared enough. That's not making 'plot' more important, that's having a weak RP to begin with. In fact, your example reeks of railroading, which is by most considered bad to begin with.

I understand what you mean it that first bit about events and actions leading to plot, I guess what I mean is when plot is overly pre-determined not neccesairily as a driving force but as a direction to head in or location to aim for metaphorically speaking. I agree completly that it'd be stupid to create a character who is going to run off and farm rather than complete the quest but there's nothing wrong with creating one who has strong obligations to the fact that the GM is trying to lead you through the cavern of doom, past the lake of fear and into the valley of the shadow of death and who suggests they walk around them. That'd actually make for an interesting party argument lol. As for the consequences, well where's the fun in playing someone who can't get injured, tortured or die playing chicken with the GM or other players on these things can be fun. Like when the throw a punch but don't land it rule is used by another player I usually land it on me to see how far they'll go.

Edit: Ninja'd to my post

Actually, I don't consider the quiet farm-idea stupid. In fact said character could start to see that they are actually also being a threat to the world, or is being crushed under the weight of responsibility, is afraid of their party members or can't handle one single more encounter with dragons. There are plenty of reasons to justify it. My point was that, while it's fine that a character may act, opposing the general direction, they have to understand that events can go on as planned. If someone says to me "Hell no we're not going through the caves of Mordia." And all the players agree. Then fine, they won't. Instead of being ambushed by orcs, an ogre and a balrog, I'll have them deal with whatever fiends and weather conditions they'll find in the mountains. If the group splits in two... Well it's gonna be harder for both parties and as the GM I'll later find ways to keep both parties relevant to the same overaching story. Or kill them.

Generally what both of you say is that railroading is bad. Which, yes, it is. Now however, look at this;

ALL characters act how they want to and none of them in anyway end up being tied to the main storyline. Making that epic quest to save the world transform into a sandbox RP where everyone plays alone. You just listed the 'plot' perspective extreme, but that right there is the 'character' perspective extreme. Technically speaking, characters can say "Fuck main storyline." all the time. However what makes an RP is not having a bunch of different perspectives, it is the interaction between players. Lacking that, because of "Never compromise character, not even in the face of RP death" kills the game for everyone. If it even was an RP to begin with.