Reply With QuoteElitism exists on the forum but is pretty rare because being an elitist makes fewer people want to RP with you.
I cannot give you a definition of elitist but I know when I see it.
I'm not sure if I'm lighting a small, paper, lunch bag of poo on fire and leaving it in the middle of the room here or not, but it is a sore tooth and I desperately want to prod it. So let's wind this up and let it go.
What is your definition of "elitism" on this site?
I've seen the word about a great deal and used to both censor and to explain an emotion, to complain about being left out and to complain about being let in. It is a well known rumor that "Advanced" RPers (I love the idea that we wear name badges: "Hello, I'm Closet. Ask me about being ADVANCED") are elitist, that groups are elitist, that requirements for story lines are elitist, that individuals are elitist.
I have my own ideas about it, but I really would like to hear what the Discussion Thread denizens have to say before I jump in because I really want it to be open to "Randomosity".
SO - what is your definition? When do you feel you're up against an "elitist"? Or do you even believe it exists? Where exactly do you draw the line? When are you most apt to actually use the word?
Let me add, I hope unnecessarily, that this is a call for definitions and discussion, so that I am calling for not the overall forum's view of elitism (because then I'd poll each player individually or ask the mod the "official" definition) but each individual's definition. Therefore, please, agree to disagree on how someone else might see it.
Last edited by Closetmonster; 11-21-2012 at 07:49 AM.
‘What will my death be like?’ he thought- and knew at once
with abrupt certainty, that it would be just like his life:
... the same balance of bearables.
~Amis in "Denton's Death"
Elitism exists on the forum but is pretty rare because being an elitist makes fewer people want to RP with you.
I cannot give you a definition of elitist but I know when I see it.
“Enemies of the Imperium, hear me. You have come here to die. The Immortal Emperor is with us and we are invincible. His soldiers will strike you down. His war machines will crush you under their treads. His mighty guns will bring the very sky crashing down upon you. You cannot win. The Emperor has given us his greatest weapon to wield. So make yourselves ready. We are the Imperial Guard, and your doom is upon you. "
We've had this conversation a million times on the guild but if it's going to persist I might as well throw in my two cents
This idea of 'elitism' can cause quite a bit of conflict at times but I feel it comes from both ends. Obviously there are some people who get up on their high horse and act condescendingly to others who may have made a simple mistake in joining an RP without fully understanding the requirements. However, this condescending nature is a small majority of the advanced section. For the most part people across the guild are fair and level headed. The advanced forum exists so that GMs can put strict and comprehensive requirements and minimums for the sake of their RP. In my experience much of the friction is often generated by the 'victim' who is actually kicking up a fuss. A GM has every right to expect their behested requirements be filled and often people who can't do so begin to rage.
Why do you ask what, when the delicious question is when?
Elitism is the act of a person or group who attribute higher value to persons who share a common trait with aforementioned person or group, than the value they attribute to others around them. Based on this value, they discriminate people who do not share that specific trait (or set of traits for that matter) because they see them as lesser beings.
Examples:
- aristocracy (we are better than the commoners because of our bloodline)
- advanced section (we are better writers than those noobs from free and casual because of our grammar, length and totally non-fandom roleplays)
- casual section (we don't write crap like free, but we're not pretentious snobs like advanced)
- free section (casual and advanced are are snobs who think they write well cause they describe sceneries like Stephanie Meyer describes Edward)
we have such sights to show you
Personally I think elitism isn't nearly a huge a problem as other people seem to make it.
Is there elitism on the site? Yeah, a little bit of it. Though that "elitism" I think is really just - and nothing more than - when people openly discriminate against levels "below" them. Like when an advanced roleplayer states that they don't like casual roleplayers. Not that they don't like playing in casual because that's just preference of play, and they're welcome to stay in the advanced section if they so choose, but if they don't like the people there, and discriminate against them for playing in that section, that is elitism. Another, more common example of it is when Spam certain people hate on "Freepers", and discriminate them and poke fun at them just because they play in free. This is different than those same people choosing not to play in Free, as that's their preference and no one's forcing them to RP there. So you're not an elitist if you don't like free roleplay. You are one if you don't like other people just because they do.
The issue with elitism is that people overreact to it. Hugely. Yes it's an issue when someone is being blatantly elitist, but what I see around here any time the issue is brought up is that people will nitpick people's replies to the subject, twist their words around and make that poster look like an elitist just to call them out on it. Elitism is bad, sure, but elitism witch-hunting is much worse. Besides, I see a lot of things that have an "elitism" stamp on them that really shouldn't, and it just adds to this witch-hunt.
That said, I'm going to group some highly-mentioned topics that come up in these "elitism discussion" threads and tell you whether or not they're elitist based on my definition of it.
Is it elitist if someone says "I hate free roleplay"?
Nope. As mentioned above, that all has to do with preference of play. Someone could just as easily say "I hate advanced roleplay" and, I can guarantee you, people won't make nearly as big a fuss about it as someone saying they hate free, despite the fact that we're still looking at two roleplayers who dislike certain roleplaying sections, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's just that people have this mindset in their heads that "hating free is elitist" even though I'm nearly positive the majority of people who frequent this part of the site don't play in free, themselves.
The only way to turn this into an elitist situation is if someone said they hate free roleplayers, especially if they said it was for their (for example) poor grammar and poorly constructed RP's in a forum full of immature teenagers (which, coming from someone who has played in free, is pretty stereotypical and not largely accurate). And if you see someone say something like that, or if someone says something along those lines to you then, by all means, report them. But there's no reason to hunt down every last roleplayer who said anything vaguely resembling a disliking of a "lower" section, especially since most of them were probably just expressing an opinion and did not mean to insult anyone.
Are terms like "high-casual" or "low-casual" elitist?
Honestly, no. Why do I think this? Because I've seen these terms in action. I even used to use these terms in the past rather often. And why did I use them? I'll give you a hint, it was not because I thought myself superior in any way. It was just a more generalized way of expressing post requirements. Casual, especially, has a huge range of posting levels in it. You can walk right into casual, and find a huge number of threads where members are usually posting one, small paragraph per post, and also threads where members are posting 1-2 or even 3 large, beefy paragraphs per post. "High-casual" and "low-casual" are often used to better distinguish the two sides, since there is a large range of members in casual.
Now, I'm not advocating the use of "high-casual", since time and time again it's just been brought up that "high-casual" standards are usually the exact same standards as advanced, just in the casual section. I get that, and I too think "high-casual" roleplayers should just be moved to advanced, however my point is that the reasoning behind using the term "high-casual" is not because of elitism. That might've been where the term came from, because I am aware of it's origins, but that's not how it's used today. The reason why high-casual remains in existence is, more accurately, because of misconceptions concerning advanced. It's no secret that advanced holds the stereotype of requiring about 6+ paragraphs per post. Is that true? No, not really, but a lot of people think it is. That's why people label advanced-level RP's as "high-casual" because they think they're on a middle ground between casual and advanced, and, well, "high-casual" is a pretty good term to describe such a thing, so they use it. Not because they think they're "better than" regular casual, but just as a way of labeling their post standards right in the thread title.
The same can be said about "low-casual", and that certainly can't be seen as elitist seeing as how no where in the name does it give the misconception that it's "above" anyone. Quite the opposite, really. I've seen free roleplayers use that term when starting out in casual, to show that they don't want a roleplay on that "higher end" of casual, with the large, meaty paragraphs, but rather the smaller, skinnier ones. They think they've found a middle ground between free and casual, which, honestly, might make more sense than a spot between casual and advanced.
Really, the only way a situation involving a "high-casual" thread into an elitist situation is if someone blatantly states "high-casual is better than low-casual or regular casual", or something of that nature. "High" and "low" casual are not expressions of superiority, but just a clarification of desired posting standards. (And don't bring in dictionary definitions saying "high-whatever" would mean it's above "normal-whatever", because by that same logic, you just said advanced is "better than" casual and defeated your own argument. Plus, it's hard to find other terms in place of "high" and "low".) So if you're trying to erase high-casual from the forum, which a lot of people I know and respect are, then label it for what it really is; misguidedness, and misconceptions about advanced. Because, despite what the term's origins were, what's driving it today is little more than this imaginary set of posting standards between the two levels. So educate high-casual RPers about what advanced really is if that's your goal, rather than calling them elitist and making them feel bad about insults they never gave out.
Is someone saying "But I'm not an elitist!" elitist?
For the last time, no. Elitism means someone thinks they're better than someone else. That's pretty simple. Therefore it should be pretty frigging obvious if someone is one. If you have to twist someone's words around, then argue with them about it, they aren't an elitist. This is why I cringe every time "elitism" or "high-casual" is brought up in this forum, because that's exactly what people will do. People will take anything even hinting towards one of the things mentioned above and label it as elitist, even though the person who said it never meant to insult anyone with what they said, and wasn't causing any problems. That's what bugs me about elitism- not so much elitism itself, but the god-awful overreactions people have to it, and the insults and drama thrown around as a result of those overreactions.
So if you see elitism, and I mean real elitism that's clearly discriminating against another and making that other person feel insulted/discriminated against, then report it and let the mods deal with it. But if you see something that could arguably be considered elitism even if it was never meant to insult anyone, then leave it alone, especially since people misrepresent their opinions all the time, and probably say a lot of things that could be stamped as elitist in these debates when they don't mean to.
Have I had bad experiences because of elitism? Yeah, once or twice, but those weren't nearly as bad as what I've experienced because of elitism witch-hunters. So if it's not blatantly discriminatory, and it's not insulting anyone else, then leave it be, please.
Elitism is an attitude expressed by an individual/group wherein they state or show they are "better" than another individual/group. Additionally, anyone who has to affirm that they are "not something" is usually showcasing the fact they are. Otherwise I'm with Kestrel and Kagamine on this one.
I get the feeling that Advanced (I capitalize it like I do Casual or Free in reference to the section names, not because I'm capitalizing to be pompous; gotta watch it in these elitism discussions...Originally Posted by www.dictionary.com
) is accused of it more often than it's guilty of it these days. I haven't noticed a lot of people patting themselves on the back for playing in Advanced so much as having a hard time relating to significantly poorer grammar or shorter post lengths (as at least two examples) but I don't think that is an elitism thing, not really.
I'm not sure that Advanced closes itself off to any and all new blood; I certainly haven't -- I let anyone take a whack so long as they can do two paragraphs per post and are willing to go back and edit their posts if they find mistakes. I'd love to meet the writer without errors, maybe some day I will.
Usually, when this issue arises, it's because someone is told in an OOC that they aren't really up to the standards, and sorry, but it's because both sides would be less than happy trying to RP together with such wide distance between expectations. More often than not, someone seems to get into Advanced by absolutely loving a concept in interest check and being told to give it a shot; people seem timid about trying but the reality is that Advanced is not hard. It is a little more editing and a little more time into each post. Elitism? I'm not sure, I've seen Advanced RP's (I've run some too) where newcomers to the Guild and anyone that stepped up were given their shot.
I have yet to see much of the dreaded and much-touted typical Advanced player often described in this place; you know, an arrogant person holding their nose and going out of their way to antagonize a person that dares to dream of being as good as they are (and I'd happily lampoon that guy, because writing is a matter of practice -- ask paid professionals about it sometime). I'm sure they exist, and I saw a few people trolling Free once...of course they also got boots to the neck by the mods.
More often than not, and I'm going to refer to a thread I just read this morning, said person themselves has an agenda in casting an entire section a certain way...in this case, he was playing the 'douchey egalitarian' card in order to rally a 'fuck him!' attitude against a guy that told him 'no' in an RP.
Personally, I wish people would put their pitchforks away and stop trying to rally 'aux barricades!" against a specific section, because name any section and it's mostly people minding their business and having their fun. Roleplaying is supposed to be a hobby. Anyone unaccountably proud of it probably needs help and a prescription.
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"The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time."
- Bertrand Russell
This is generally the definition used when people here attempt to throw the word around like an insult.
There are still some elitists on this site, but they come in all shapes and sizes.
As for "advanced being more elitist", well, no.
I am off to Thanksgiving! Thank you all for the ideas. It amazes me how a word can have such connotations.
I don't believe I put this down as other than to consider a discussion on not elitism as a practice, but the WORD itself and the power it has been given of late.
I have played RP for many, many years. I began on this site a bit ago, and the overall feeling of a small community has changed but in many ways has remained the same. The majority of people here are present primarily to RP (big surprise there). They love to create and look for someone to create with. When they spend the time and throw a few frogs (frogs being someone who doesn't match their need) back into the pond (who then go and find other frogs they can croak with), then they will find superb partners of any and every type, shade, ability, and personality.
THIS is our strength. I am constantly amazed by the way a site can do this so wholly.
(ninja'd: due to Closet being an idiot and setting up a Gotcha culture which is not something I like to do - sorreee!)
There being no specific definition outside of the dictionary.com one which was incredibly succinct and greatly broad in interpretation, I am now thankful as well, that what is being described, I have seen in so few forms. Therefore, the term may as well not even exist in my vocabulary. If I ever DO see the dictionary.com form, I will be sure to shout it at the tops of the mountains where no one can hear.
May I throw something out there? I have noticed that while I mentioned the word and a nice list, we mainly focused on that ugly "rumor" again; that advanced is elitist. I wonder, when we give too much attention to a rumor, that we might make it real? I for one haven't heard at all that advanced is elitist except for people referencing that others say it is. This is not to say that someone doesn't have a grudge now and then and may poke a stick into someone's eye. I have a tendency to think that anyone doing that is probably under the age of sixteen and most likely just needs to be patted on the head, told "thanks for telling me that" and sent on their merry way to another game so they can enjoy themselves.
My two cents. Thank you RPGuild for being such an awesome forum. I'm glad that out of all of the time I've both taken active part and lurked to read, I would change only ONE measly, little-used word to make my experience better. That makes us pretty damn cool. Go us!
EDIT:
And I am so stealing that damned tongue of Brovo's. It will be mine one day. Oh yes. It will be mine. I shall gild it, put it on a trophy case, and light it up as the one that finally didn't get away.
Last edited by Closetmonster; 11-21-2012 at 06:11 PM. Reason: I DUN GOOFT!
‘What will my death be like?’ he thought- and knew at once
with abrupt certainty, that it would be just like his life:
... the same balance of bearables.
~Amis in "Denton's Death"
I call it Unlitism (un-leet-iz-im). On a scale of 1 to 10 (ten being the most elite), I peg out around 20, really. It's the damnedest thing. Feel free to borrow the terminology if the word "elitism" exasperates you.
But your question gave me a little deja vu that I thought I would share if you care to delve into past answers about the same subject.
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