Transitioning to Advanced?

[Lukas Kelly]

I consider myself a pretty good writer when it comes to more academic settings, and I'm decent a fiction if I ever have something to actually write about. Despite this, I really am not that great at RPs to say the least. It's not that I'm bad, it's that I lack the skill and technique of RPing that many veterans have. I'm pretty much relegated to Casual at this point because the RPs that have the most interesting premises and skilled RPers are not often found in Free (no offense to anyone). Advanced has even more of those than casual, but god damn do the posts in the Advanced section seem daunting. I'm actively trying to improve how much content I include in posts, but it's obviously not quite there yet (otherwise I wouldn't be asking). Just as a frame of reference, I'm averaging about 203 paragraphs with 5-8 sentences.

I ask this not just for me, but for any other person who is interested in improving their RPing ability to where they can participate in casual, what things do you recommend? What do you write about that contributes to larger lengths without resorting to over-descriptions or internal monologues every post? How do you avoid creating short posts when you're in dialogue with a person? Any sort of information and tips you could provide that could direct me and others in a situation like mine to improve RPing skills would be greatly appreciated.

[Shon Harris]

Well, first of all, do it. Don't hesitate much, remain humble even should you make the transition with applause and cries of joy (as if this happens anywhere), and keep flexible to learning. That's really all you need. I'll tell you, when I first came here, I went directly into Advanced not because I thought I was a snapping writer or able to write very long, but because I knew I couldn't/wouldn't post every 2 days. I liked the idea of creating something larger over time.

What you really want to do is sink into the character. Spend a good amount of time in that Character Sheet until you're really interested in them and are curious about where they might go. For me, I wouldn't bring characters from other places into others, because I want to 'find', not create, the person in that reality. There's something to really getting sunk into those shoes. Remember that you are not the character. You're really a witness to them in this place and could mean they'd do things you wouldn't agree with, in any way, and maybe even things you know will likely lead to them doing something horrible or dying. You're just hear to write what you see. Now that can mean some internal monologues, but it's your job to put this down as eloquently and concise as you can. Do that and get back to the situation, the surrounding, the little gestures that add image to the story. Beyond length -- fuck length, this gives you substance. And that's coming from someone notorious for long posts.

I can be pretty short about dialogue. PM the other person and decide how y'all want to deal with it. I work pretty loosely with Free Faller, who I trust very much with my character in Apocalyptica. She's read my character's thoughts and speech, and sometimes she just glosses over his words (ex. Simon gave the usual speech, policy this, law that...), or simply had him respond as needed. Never something declaring his personal values or whatever else she might feel comfortable drawing from him. No matter what she does, or what I do with her character, we still send the post via PM prior to posting. This way the person can edit the speech if they feel the voice is lost. This allows all that necessary, beautiful dialogue, to happen in one person's post while keeping the spirit of each unique character.

There are some great GMs out there who I trust pretty well. Wonderful thinkers and flexible storytellers, I'd jump into any of their worlds. Find someone you feel that way about, maybe shoot them a PM, and don't try to un-sell yourself. Sure, tell them about your concern, but speak about your strengths or ambitions. Get some trust there and jump in. You will not get into Advanced unless you walk yourself in. If you don't meet the official guidelines, you'll meet that challenge. But you can't if you don't put yourself in the position to do it. So do it.

[Dervish]

I think on the general rule of thumb, most people only ever expect about 3 paragraphs for Advanced. I kind of have periods of floating between Casual and Advanced, but I think I'm leaning more towards Advanced now due to how I write belonging much more in that section than Casual. The main thing to keep in mind is it's not about post length, it's about quality. You'd be surprised on how long you can make a post if you are descriptive and keep in mind of how a novel's formatted. A lot of times, people will work on collaborative posts, and that contributes to a lot of the lengthy ones you see. A good thing about Advanced is there isn't any real pressure to post quickly, you can take your time and get something in over the course of a few days if you really wanted to a lot of the time, so it may look daunting and unachievable at first, but honestly, it's something that if you go at with an open minded and enthusiasm, you shouldn't have any issues transitioning! If you find that Casual isn't quite what you're looking for anymore, it's probably a good time to dip your toes in and see what bites.

As for the skill and what not, that comes in time and you develop your own style of writing that kind of sticks out after a while! As long as you have decent spelling and grammar and follow the rules, you should never, ever run into problems and most people on this forum are very accepting and encouraging. If you're still not 100% sure on the transition but what to try something a bit more involved than regular Casual, there's always a few labeled as High-Casual, which usually have Advanced writing requirements or content but acts as more of a middle ground for you to get used to writing at that level. Either way, don't be discouraged! You have options and no shortage of people to help!

[Disciple Cain]

I ask this not just for me, but for any other person who is interested in improving their RPing ability to where they can participate in casual, what things do you recommend? What do you write about that contributes to larger lengths without resorting to over-descriptions or internal monologues every post? How do you avoid creating short posts when you're in dialogue with a person? Any sort of information and tips you could provide that could direct me and others in a situation like mine to improve RPing skills would be greatly appreciated.

Hatrack.com Hatrack.com Hatrock.com

It's a very friendly place and they'll definitely help you on your writing skills if you're brave enough to put something out there for them to read. Length is hardly an issue as it very much depends on the kind of scene you're trying to portray. Beyond character actions, expressions, and possibly inflections among their dialog, it doesn't need to be long.

Just remember, however, that you can be a wonderfully descriptive writer and still be a bloody awful storyteller beneath all the fluff and fanciness. Also, Shon Harris makes good points.

Like the underlying fact that Advanced roleplays take bloody forever to get anywhere and take more of an attention span to bother with that I have. Most die young, and the rest kind of just amble along until everyone just forgets about them. (Saying this was a bit bitter, I must admit)

Fact is that there's a difference between fluff and filler to me. Tell you the truth, I love soft things. What I mean is that if you post only the bare bones of what your character is doing and saying it might actually come off as a little dry, empty, and rigid. Then again, we all know that. But if you give it too much fluff to the point of it just being filler, it kind of just becomes unhealthy and... well, no one wants to read that. I haven't spent time in Advanced for over a year and some and don't really plan to go back because I find the kind of roleplayers and roleplays I'm looking for in Casual, but my original point 'Underneath the fluff you can still be a cruddy story teller' can't really be disputed, and Ruby's apparent 'disagreement' with me actually just cemented that.

So thanks Ruby.


Take what I say with a grain of salt I guess but for serious, you should check out Hatrack.com. Official Website of Orson Scott Card, and complete with a writer's workshop where you can post your stuff and get wonderful critique from all sorts of writers.

Good luck broguy.

[Unlit]

Just as a frame of reference, I'm averaging about 203 paragraphs with 5-8 sentences.

203 paragraphs! My friend, you'll fit right in with the Advanced ranks!

But silliness at a typo aside, I glanced over some of your most recent posts. You are already meeting the standards for Advanced in most of them (2-3 paragraphs minimum, which is already your average you said, and some plot progression). You should just go get your feet wet in an Advanced roleplay somewhere and then jump right in. You'll know if it's a good move for you soon enough.

Personally, I don't think the issue will be if you can live up to Advanced standards. I think any issue will come from adjusting to the Advanced crowd. Because... some of them write a LOT (which includes the "over-description" and "internal monologue" you mentioned). You're going to be expected to read all of that, whether it's pertinent to the game or not. Plus, Advanced usually moves a good deal slower than Casual. While you throw up a few paragraphs to post something in the matter of minutes easily, you might not get a return post for a day or more. From what I have seen, that is the biggest issue with a typically Casual roleplayer forging into Advanced. There's no question that they can do it, but some just find it's not their cup of tea.

And some of the easy interaction that exists in Casual games is not present in some Advanced games. A lot of Advanced games almost read like a Game of Thrones novel. Everyone weaving their own individual stories, complete with their own NPC's, and eventually, those stories/characters clash together. Which is great, if that's what you love. Not so great if you'd rather have immediate and constant interaction for the entire game. But that said... I'm sure you could dig up plenty of Advanced games that do cater to easy interaction. It's not like they set out to hinder it... It's just the way the cookie crumbles sometimes.

But to answer your questions: How do you write lengthy posts without over-description or internal monologue? Well... you just don't, if you don't want to. Some very much enjoy description and internal monologue. Some don't. I personally enjoy it in doses. To some, all that is absolutely the funnest part to writing. But 10 times out of 10, I would rather you give me a concise, short post I can do something with rather than a very long, detailed, thought-filled post that I can do nothing with. As long as you make a post that people can play with, I don't think anyone's going to care how much detail or internal monologue you put in it.

Here's an easy format to follow for a post, though -- the first part of your post can be the mental reaction to events (the thoughts, what your character might notice about the setting/events, the musings, etc.), the middle part can be the physical reaction to events, and the final part can be where you push the story forward the next step, whatever that entails.

And how do Advanced players handle dialogue? I've seen many games now that use collaborated posts. As in, you PM a conversation between two characters back and forth until there's a stopping point, and then post that conversation in full. Sometimes people go off-site to work this up too, such as google-docs and whatnot. But really, you could do it however you like. Ask the players in whatever game you join what they are comfortable with. Maybe they're fine with going to one-paragraph responses until the dialogue is over. Won't hurt to ask!

Happy gaming to you, however it turns out.

[Omega]

If you can post 3 paragraphs at around 5 sentences each you can meet the length requirements for advanced and for the grammar and spelling all you really need to do is reread your post once and you should meet those requirements as well. The door says advanced but it is not really and while some claim otherwise advanced is not really elite(ist) either many people roleplay at an unofficial 'high casual' level and easily meet the advanced requirements but people generally stay in casual as it is more populated than advanced.

[Ruby]

Kinda agree with Omega here.

I knew the moment I got to the Guild/internet roleplaying (same time) that Advanced was my place. Why? Not because I could write so many paragraphs or words a post. No Advanced writer I know on this site measures whether or not they're Advanced by those lines. What those lines give is a mental image of the average Advanced post, so in that way they're very effective at conveying what 'Advanced is.' Even if they don't actually convey what it takes to write at an Advanced level.

While I disagree with you there, the rest of what you said is right on. There's a lot of people that are in Casual now that could go if they wanted. In fact I have a feeling, though I can't back it up with any numbers, that most players (or a large amount anyway) actually ping between Casual and Advanced depending on the Interest Checks and what catches their eye. Obviously that excludes the Free section, but I've never tried Free, so I can't really include what I don't know. But this is kinda an aside.

Likewise, kinda agree with Unlit. Let's not assume all Casual players want to move into Advanced. Advanced games do run slower. But the good ones also run longer, so it balances out.

Dialogue has ALWAYS been an issue for Advanced writers. In the past it's been knowing how to pepper your posts with 'ins' or 'cues' for the other character(s) to ping off of in their posts. Some people respond to each 'cue' in sequence, some mix it up according to their character's will so it's not robotic. More recently, as Unlit explained, it's been 'collaboration.' That can be really really cool. Say three people in a game are working on a big collab scene. The anticipation for that scene can get kinda high. It really does create a 'behind closed doors' moment to roleplaying, which might be unique to all roleplaying on the site.

Now there is stuff going on in the game and unless your character is involved, you don't find out right away. You find out when it's posted and already happened, and like real life you didn't know exactly what was coming but now you have to deal with it and respond to it. So that's actually kind of a cool development and I think a reason FOR trying Advanced. But, also, I think some Advanced games haven't figured out how to properly utilize collaborative posts yet.

So with any gaming experience, look before you leap. Which is one thing Shon brings up. There are far fewer excellent GMs than excellent roleplayers on the Guild, it seems to me. Find a GM you think is good, usually someone that has genre interests aligned with you, and don't be afraid to stick with them. I run (GM) both Casual and Advanced games, and when someone says they like the games I run I also point out other GMs (Casual and Advanced) that I really enjoyed. And if I enjoyed them and you're enjoying my game, you're probably going to dig their games too.

That's the biggest part of enjoying RPs I've noticed so far; right time, right GM, right cast of players. Don't be afraid to express interest in something and back out if some part of that equation turns sour to you.

Couldn't disagree with Cain more. If we're in an Advanced game together and you post fluff? You think I enjoy reading fluff? You think any one enjoys reading fluff? Does it exist? Sure. All over, probably. But most Advanced writers I know...we can spot quality, and we can also spot fluff. We know the difference. Like Dervish said, it's really about writing in the style of a novel, but knowing how to craft your post for seamless transition to the next writer. You're both writing the same story, just from different aspects. You're not responding to prompts or writing in a shell where only the GM is allowed to touch and mold this world.

In that way, Advanced demands you be creatively proactive when it's done really well. Good Advanced writing, even non-collabs, I should be able to take a game and with not many edits make it read like one continuous novella. That includes not just using NPCs as something to facilitate your character or your characters needs. NPcs are people too, and they require some creativity and thought. Other people beside yourself don't exist just when it's time to buy a ticket, or when you gather with family. The have personalities and just as much 'mass' in this fictional universe as your character does. Don't think of them as storytelling smurfs.

Also, settings have their own unique characterizations. Fill them out. Illustrate that.

Unlike Unlit I can't really comment on your posts, you have too small a sample size for me. From what's there I'd say it's kind of choppy. The writing doesn't always flow very well. But that's kind of a thought to fingertips thing, and it only comes with practice. It's like making a stone knife; at first it's this clunky awkward thing, but after time and patient work it becomes this beautiful elegant thing. I'd been writing since I was 7. So a lot of that work I had already put in before getting here. Which means Shon is also right; jump in! Even if it's not immediately Advanced. Find a 'High Casual' game. Some of those are great stepping stones, especially those ran by Advanced GMs.

I stalked people's profiles. I'd see someone post an Interest Check, or I'd go read an ongoing game I wasn't in and find someone's post I liked and read a dozen or so of their posts from their post history in their profile. When I wanted to become a better, non-derping, GM I did the same thing. Found GMs I liked and searched for their topics started. Looked at how they made their OPs, how they interacted with players, how they structured the storytelling. A lot of talent on this site, and it's one big open resource for those that want to get better.

If you have more specific questions, feel free to PM me.

And good luck!

[Hound55]

That's the biggest part of enjoying RPs I've noticed so far; right time, right GM, right cast of players. Don't be afraid to express interest in something and back out if some part of that equation turns sour to you.

This.

Obviously, I'm relatively new here but from my experience I'd probably put the right cast of players at the forefront, followed by the right time, then the GM. If you wind up with a good group of people who figure out how to work off of each other the amount of work that the GM needs to do becomes negligible beyond that of a regular player. At least that's what I've found.

The further you are from that cohesion though, the more the GM factors in.