As you probably have heard by now, but a Boeing 777 passenger plane crashed near the Ukrainean/Russian border on its way to Malaysia. It was most likely accidentally shot down by pro-Russian separatists, who thought they were aiming at a military transport plane. The death toll: all 283 passengers plus all 15 crew members. totaling at 298 lives lost. Most of said passengers were Dutch (At least 173 of them, making it the second worst air traffic disaster in Dutch histor. At the moment of writing this message, the nationality of 20 victims is still unknown.). I... I'm just really glad that I don't know anyone on that flight.

Current death toll according to the latest news
- 20 Unknown
- 173 Dutch (As a result, today is a national day of mourning on all public buildings over here, with the flag behing hung half-mast amongst other things.)
- 44 Malaysians
- 27 Australians
- 12 Indonesians
- 9 Brits
- 4 Germans
- 4 Belgians
- 3 Phillipines
- 1 Canadese
- 1 New-Zealander
Amongst the victims are also three very young children, possibly even infants (the cause of an early irregularity in the death toll, seeing as they didn't have their own seats).


Seriously, I just... don't have words for this. Due to an already deeply stupid conflict, almost 300 lives were cut off, just like that. 300 civilians, not even remotely related in any way to either party. All because they were at the wrong place at the wrong time...

Yes, unfortunately it has been confirmed that 3 babies were on the plane as well as other children of various ages. Someone needs to find a third alternative to this situation before its too late.

So, 283 people died but mentioning three children is important? Anyway, I feel really sorry for all of these people, none of them threats.

I never said that the other people were less important

Putin will do what he wants. Nobody seems willing to stand against him.

Watcher said
Putin will do what he wants. Nobody seems willing to stand against him.

It was not in range of Russian BUKs and until this incident the most advanced SAM used by rebels has been the IGLA. It is doubted the rebels had the expertise to use a BUK. They would have likely used it earlier while they were being actively bombed if they had it and could use it.

Who dunnit then? Perhaps the Ukraine gov done it to pin the blame on the rebels?

Omega said
It was not in range of Russian BUKs and until this incident the most advanced SAM used by rebels has been the IGLA. It is doubted the rebels had the expertise to use a BUK. They would have likely used it earlier while they were being actively bombed if they had it and could use it.

It is established fact that the rebels had a BUK, and they have Russians who can train them. Furthermore they bragged about shooting a Ukrainian plane down within 10 minutes of the flight going down and subsequently deleted it. The seperatists or their handlers did it

So Boerd said
It is established fact that the rebels had a BUK, and they have Russians who can train them. Furthermore they bragged about shooting a Ukrainian plane down within 10 minutes of the flight going down and subsequently deleted it. The seperatists or their handlers did it

None of the claims have been corroborated and because neither side would agree to anything to let an investigation begin by now any substantial evidence is gone so it will be near impossible to prove if it was Russian soldiers in Ukraine or Ukrainian soldiers.

Omega said
None of the claims have been corroborated and because neither side would agree to anything to let an investigation begin by now any substantial evidence is gone so it will be near impossible to prove if it was Russian soldiers in Ukraine or Ukrainian soldiers.

This isn't a court of law, I am not interested in proving beyond a reasonable doubt anyone's guilt. The preponderance of evidence points towards the rebels or Russians and there does not exist one (read:one) piece of evidence or scrap of well founded conjecture to suggest the Ukraine gov. did it.

Must be a conspiracy against Russia. Only explanation.

The only question of "who done it?" is whether it was Russian separatists in Ukraine or the Russian government directly.

Poor Malaysia Airlines: First 370 vanishes, now this. They must be having a really bad year ...

So Boerd said
This isn't a court of law, I am not interested in proving beyond a reasonable doubt anyone's guilt. The preponderance of evidence points towards the rebels or Russians and there does not exist one (read:) piece of evidence or scrap of well founded conjecture to suggest the Ukraine gov. did it.

Supposedly a "Spanish air traffic controller working in Ukraine" saw the flight being escorted by Ukrainian fighter jets before it vanished. But no-one has been able to prove his existence.

The pilot in the room says: hold off on judging this one. Radars are strange. If the fighter wasn't blasting an IFF signal (and why would it be, while engaging a target?) there's not going to be anything conclusive from ATC or radar. That's just not how the technology works. Anyway the Kremlin is being a lot more forthcoming than the white house right now. This seems like a cosmic fuck-up, not a conspiracy. Somebody pushed the wrong button (or pushed the right one, but targeted the wrong plane). I really doubt that any part of this was orchestrated -- of course, some Bombar Al-Suicidinn might claim credit and prove me wrong, who knows. POINT IS -- wait. Miss Information will be along shortly to tell you all about what happened.

mdk said
The pilot in the room says: hold off on judging this one. Radars are strange. If the fighter wasn't blasting an IFF signal (and why would it be, while engaging a target?) there's not going to be anything conclusive from ATC or radar. That's just not how the technology works. Anyway the Kremlin is being a lot more forthcoming than the white house right now. This seems like a cosmic fuck-up, not a conspiracy. Somebody pushed the wrong button (or pushed the right one, but targeted the wrong plane). I really doubt that any part of this was orchestrated -- of course, some Bombar Al-Suicidinn might claim credit and prove me wrong, who knows. POINT IS -- wait. Miss Information will be along shortly to tell you all about what happened.

One of the numbers of non-pilots in the room also adds that the media tries to jump to conclusions because they're trolling for the angle that is the right scoop, but in the process tends to air out a lot of conjecture. So the process of watching the media 'develop' the story should be watched with a fair amount of skepticism. A lot of the reporters are wedded to statements from the various ministries involved in various nations these days. Maybe that's a history major thing; you should assume bias in your sources. Uncertainty is nothing to be ashamed of, in my mind.