Eh, I think he would keep the boring name of the company. I see that name being chosen generations ago, and is now a household trusted name kinda thing. So despite Alexi's wackiness, I see that name fitting the main company :P Oh, and glad it worked so well into your ideas.

It's interesting that your post brought up the idea of buying Joseph. My brain is weird, so I've actually thought a good bit about how much various slaves are worth and how that would be tabulated.

Well, calculating begins with base factors. In my mind slaves have only a handful of factors: Rarity, Skill Set, Trainability, and Lifespan.

In Joseph's case, he may be one of the more common breeds, but due to his age his skills are quite varied, and because he has been successfully hard broken for so long, he's also easily trainable. Also, he's immortal, which adds to his value decently, and because of the free reign Alexi has given him over the past several years and his station in the household, he has developed skills far outside the normal range for such a common breed, on in fact, slaves in general. So, on a scale of value to the public, he's only about a 5 out of 10(The work it would take to transition him over to a new family adding extra cost, hence taking away from his value a bit), but for people looking for the exact kind of slave he is, he's valued at at least a 7.

So publicly, he's a so-so slave, but to those who see more value in his talents and grace, he's a fairly decent slave. And because Alexi refuses to even consider giving him up, that just makes people more curious as to why. . . . .

Well, that's my math, what's yours? Oh, and I see less intelligent and/or naturally violent slaves like minotaur and were-beasts as the "Less trainable". Just so you know what I meant by that :P

To start with, I had roughly the same factors in my head. Rarity and skill set / experience, especially.

I was thinking of Joseph as worth a lot more than that, because of the sheer breadth of his skill set. No one probably knows just how much he does for Alexi. He's an amazing manager, with everything that entails. And he handles the finances for the Vandros household. I even imagine him doing Alexi's taxes. He's a relatively accomplished musician, repairman, cook, caretaker, gardener, bodyguard etc... because his roles have changed so much over the years. Furthermore, the fact that he's not formally hard broken but just psychologically still in that mindset gives him significantly more ability to act with both grace and independence.

As far as difficulty training him for a new household, I don't see that as particularly difficult. He would go quietly without voicing his displeasure or trepidation in any way.

You've basically covered all of that, so I was still trying to get why he's still not worth much to most people. And I guess what it is is that his skills aren't necessarily slave skills. I imagine that some owners think so little of slaves that they would find Joseph's intelligence and ability disconcerting at best, and downright insulting at worst. Some might be worried that someone with that much independence and skill would betray them, because they are “cut out” for a better life than that of a slave. At some point, being too competent could actually hurt you.

Besides that, I'm sure that Alexi keeps the skills of his slaves, especially Joseph, rather quiet. So no one but Alexi knows just how valuable he is. Joseph is not being graded on his actual usefulness, but rather his perceived ability, in a culture that has certain ideas on what a slave should do, and in a world where it's hidden for his own protection. That's why his score is so low. The people who can see past all of that, Orion for instance, know that he's worth a lot more. So if he were going to be sold, it would be a private thing to someone who wants a trustworthy slave with his skill set. On the open market, against slaves who have only done slave work, his skills don't help him that much.

Of course, it's irrelevant since even Joseph knows that Alexi would never sell him. Tristan came close to it a couple of times though. :-P So, I was kind of insulted on my character's behalf at first, but ultimately I agree with you.

As far as Erik's price... he's got to be almost worthless. He's a vampire, so a common species, with a known violent criminal history. He has some skills in repair work, cooking, stuff he had to do for the Resistance, but he's a major flight risk and would be prone to lash out. He'd be worth slightly more to someone crazy who liked the idea of utterly breaking a formal Resistance leader, but otherwise he's a 2 at best. Maybe a 3 to someone like that.

Because of how long he's been enslaved in the Vandros family, it would actually be quite difficult to trade him over properly to another family. Even if they hard broke him, they would be essentially trying to unbreak his old bond to form a new one, and it would have to be a hard breaking to accomplish this. Orion knows this, and does not mind the idea. . .So. . . .Yeah, he's not evil, but he will go to great lengths when it comes to slaves he really wants.

You're right too, his skill set is mostly unknown, and most would assume that he is your general hard broken long lived vampire, which as you say, isn't worth too much.

I understand being insulted for your character. It happened at the beginning of an RP for an assassin character I had. The other character(My partner's character) somehow knocked the blade away from his throat when I know for a FACT that it was impossible. I brought it up with my partner, a change was made. But it was just that moment of my mind going "No! No way! Rei is way faster than a drunk half asleep human!" I'm glad you get the differential thought between his real worth and his public worth :P

Erik. . . . .Yes. . . . Has very little slave value. . . .However he is a collector's item that is nearly priceless at the same time. Most in his position are killed in the line of duty, or find a way to kill themselves so that they can't be hard broken and forced to divulge their secrets. So, to the public, a 1-2, maybe, and to a collector of rare slaves, a 8-9. He's like a rare baseball card, he only has worth to those who seek rarities like him.

As far as trading him to a different family, Joseph might not be as emotionally loyal, because that's not something anyone can just automatically do. But he wouldn't be disobedient. If asked to drink the hard breaking potion, his only resistance would be to politely ask the master to reconsider, pointing out that he has been a much more effective slave since his last hard breaking ended. Even that's only because he feels so strongly about his hatred for the potion. If the new master insisted after that, he would drink the doses without further complaint. ... He's... incredibly messed up, really. Honestly, I rarely play characters that are that gorram submissive/broken.

It's hard for me to understand the collector's mentality, because everything that makes him valuable as a Leader has made him worthless as a slave. To turn him into a slave, you have to obliterate his identity as a Leader, and then it seems like he wouldn't be as valuable as a collector's item. Does that make any sense?

I think we're having a differing of opinion here. Being enslaved to the same family for so long Joseph's attachment to the blood line runs deeper than a normal even hard broken slave. The continual link to the same bloodline would make the re-breaking process quite difficult. It is, by the nature of such a long break, almost a part of his very make-up to serve the Vandros, and the loyalty to them would be excruciating to lose. The break would likely cause Joseph some major issue for a long time, and if not treated, permanent damage. I would say that, written in a manual somewhere, that trying to transfer a slaves bound via the breaking potion for over a certain amount of years to the same family is not recommended.

Tell me this: What is the value to you of a stamp that was originally purchased for 2 cents fifty years ago from a bank, in excellent condition, that only has thirty others like it ever printed, and only 10 of which are in the trading market?(Inaccurate example of the price of a stamp 50 years ago, but it's besides the point) Nothing, right? It's a stamp. But to a stamp collector, that stamp may very well be the holy grail of their collection. That is how collector minds work. *Nods* It's not what he can do as a slave that makes him valuable, it is making him "My" slave that has all the value :P

Hm... You're right that Joseph can't throw away that loyalty. But if he was sold fair and square, not captured or anything, then he would still be obedient, if for no other reason than he knows that that's Master Alexi's will. He hasn't been chemically hard broken for about 300 years now, because at some point, there was no longer a need for the potion in his case. He's soft broken, but that's less severe. I don't see why he would have to be broken in order to be obedient and to work in the best interests of his new masters, so long as they weren't against Vandros interests.

Yes, he would be upset about the change, even heartbroken. He loves Alexi, and having someone you love and think of as a son literally sell you to someone else would be horrid. But his own emotions are irrelevant to him. He would still do as he was told regardless. I guess, I see his current breaking as much more psychological than chemical at this point.

But if we went with your concept of it, I still need some more explanation. What is the cause of such a reaction, his own mind and loyalty or the potions? And what would the results be for Joseph?

That is, if you dont mind. It's not like any of this is going to happen in the story. I can't see Alexi selling Joseph even if he was offered a thousand times his highest appraisal. I am curious about the implications for if and when he is freed, however.

~

Well, to me, that stamp is worthless... but I like money enough that if I thought I could sell it for a significant profit, I'd still buy or take it. To use your analogy, breaking, at least hard breaking, someone like Erik would be like having to crumple up the stamp in order to keep it in your collection. If he's hard broken, then his identity as a Leader is gone, a part of his past. If anything, it would make more sense to soft break him... keep his mind intact, even though he's imprisoned. But I suppose it does depend on the person. Maybe the act of taking someone so rebellious and making them truly your own slave would be valuable to some.

I will address the former when I have a brain to do so. As to the latter, for a collector, the hard breaking would not be crumpling, it would be cleaning and preserving the slave. It doesn't matter that Erik's mind would be crushed, because it's how other humans look at the owning that matters. Even as a broken blank slate, being able to show off this "Once proud leader" as a collectible would be the prize, not the actual state of his mind. Who cares if he still thinks for himself, this man/woman here has him, and has tamed him. What a catch! Things don't have minds, and slaves are things, so a thing with a broken mind does not lessen the value of the thing when it's the possessing the thing that matters, which in this case is what would matter. Having him broken and subservient would server the human's ego. "Look at this amazing strong willed thing I now have under my boot, and polishing it too! Look at that!" So. . . . Yeah. . . . . Humans are f'ed up. And I have no brain. . . .Ish over der. . . .Collectin' flies :P

Oh, and, in this analogy, the person selling the stamp knows how much he could get from a collector, so you would pay out of the nose for that stamp, and if you tried to turn a profit on it there is a good chance he could find it cheaper somewhere else and you would be left with a stamp you may never sell, or if you do it will be fore less than what you bought it for. Too risky in my humble opinion. . . .

I must to sleep now before my last brain cell goes on strike. G'night, and sweetin dreams. . . . .

I meant more if I were given it for free or cheap or something. I know I can't really make any money on that kind of thing. :-)

I suppose it would depend on the collector. I'm in one rp would my rebel leader was captured, and the Emperor started off wanting to break her, but then realized he did not want to obliterate her mind completely. But in that case, he'd developed a personal enmity with her, from afar, and had come to respect her, though he would never admit it. In this world, he would have merely soft broken her, because he came to enjoy parrying words and sharing ideas about the nature of command.

So that's really a different mentality from the desire to own, control, and break such a formerly powerful creature, which is more what you're talking about. This hypothetical collector would have no respect for Erik's spirit or accomplishments, only a desire to crush it and mold it to his/her own will. I'm looking forward to a scene or two of freeing some of the other former Leaders who met that fate.

You know, you really are just as fucked up as I am, my friend. :-P I approve.

*Rolls eyes* I just have a different way of of viewing such things. For people who saw slaves as things, the mind of the slave would have no real value as long as it did what is was suppose to, and in the case of the slave being rare and dangerous, it would have the most value to a collector as safe and easy to show off to others. In the case of your RP, it seems that the rebel leader was still a person in the emperor's mind, not an object, so the parallel can not be drawn. Kings would often try to subjugate counties and lord they conquer, leaving them a bit of their own culture and the like because they are more valuable that way, but in these cased, the lords and people are still seen as humans, not object, like slaves are. That's the only point I was trying to make really is that when it comes to slaves,a true slave collector would never see any real value in the slave's ability to think, only seeing value in owning such a rare piece and more enjoying showing him off than caring what chores he could do. Like those crazy people who buy art without being able to appreciate it. It may be a profound and moving piece, but all they care about is showing it off to their friends and making other jealous.

I personally would never think this way, but as a student of human nature, and someone who strives to make sure he is able to write things I don't believe in accurately I have had to dig into such unpleasant things. :P

EDIT:

Oh, and about Joseph. The soft breaking still requires a potion, however it is a diluted version of the original. However, this does mean that with every generation his bond to the family has be re-affirmed, and even though it was in a much less powerful manner. . .I's like cigarettes. The longer you have been smoking them, the harder it is on your body to quit. As for when he's freed, there will be a couple days where he is sick as a dog, but think of it like a smoker going through withdrawal, but at the end of it his/her lungs are clean and there is no remaining chemicals int here system begging to be fed by nicotine. However, they will still have the off habit of reaching for their pack after a meal, or feel restless son occasion when they have nothing to do with their hands since they no longer are handling a cigarette all the time. Odd little quirks, but no vicious need for the chemical. So, in this case, Joseph's natural loyalty to Alexi and his brother will still be there, if that is part of his free mind, however he will no longer feel the need to submit if given an order by any given human. He may occasionally start to comply before realizing that "Hey, I don't have to, up yers!" His wills till feel the guilt of his actions from long ago, but he will actually be able to get over it now that he is no longer constantly bound to one of the bloodline that he caused harm to. I hope that makes sense. Alexi made very sure that the freeing potion would work quickly, albeit a bit harshly, so that it only takes a couple days for the physical recovery. After that their minds and hearts will be able to heal, no residual feelings of their previous owners keeping them down. Those who have been hard broken and horribly treated will take some time to recover, but with (Hopefully :P) Erik and Joseph's help, and the aid of the resistance under their guidance, recovery will be as painless as one can expect. *Shifty eyes* Despite what's going to be going on at the same time. *Devious look*

Yeah, the situation in the other RP was different. I understand, m'dear. And I was just teasing you. I'm able come up with really horrid scenarios as well, things I would never do or think in real life. On some level, I'm still rather ashamed of that ability, so my joke to you about being as terrible as me was just in jest.

Don't forget that you said you'd tell me more about what you were thinking for Joseph's situation when you could. Not that there's any rush.

*Points up* I did. I edited it in while you were replying to the first part I think. As to the matter of thinking up absolutely horrid things, do not be ashamed, it is a gift. A gift most would rather not have, but as a writer it is useful. I took no offence :P I was just saying that: Just because I can write it, doesn't mean I would enjoy RPing it :P

I see. It's just in my mind, most of the way Joseph acts is psychological now. Even when Alexi phrases something as a request rather than an order, he still tends to do it whether he likes it or not. That's not the potion forcing him, as it doesn't trigger with simple requests as it does with order. That's his own learned loyalty and submissiveness. In some ways, he's actually worse off than a hard broken slave, because there isn't an antidote for that. Worst of all, right now, he doesn't want to be free. Or rather, he does, but he's so convinced that he doesn't deserve freedom that he would rather stay a slave. Alexi will be hard pressed to even get him to take the antidote.

Anyway, all of that is a while off.

It may seem psychological, but the soft breaking potion is still working on his system, the way I've designed it at least, ant the initial hard breaking is still there as well, it's just dulled because it hasn't been renewed in forever. That is why simple requests do not trigger his chemical auto response, and why direct orders still do. *Sad smile* Alexi will order him to take it if he has to. He won't want a slave around after all, he wants them all free, and if Joseph tries to defy him in that, Alexi will be forced to order him, which he will have to obey. He would never deny Joseph the right to continue serving, but. . . . .*Thinks of things that can not be said aloud* He can serve, but Alexi will not let him stay a slave.

I kind of figured that Alexi would order him to do it. That will be a fascinating scene to play out. I do think it's going to take a lot longer than a few days for Joseph to truly overcome the psychological aspects of it, though, to figure out how to live as a free man. I think in my mind, more of it is in his head now than you're thinking. But that's ok.

In the more immediate future... the only way I can see for Erik to truly remove the "poison" from the bond with Alexi is to actually approach his own demons. I'm not entirely sure if I want to play that out, however.

The chemical effect will end in two days, but you are right, the recover after that will take a long time for poor Joseph :P

*Shifty eyes* *Can not reveal important bits*

Lots of aspects to deal with... Damnit, I'll probably have forgotten half of it by the time we actually get there in the RP.

What could I have possibly started to touch with THAT comment? Lol.

Mwahahahaaaaa! *Feels all evil*

So, will you have reply time today? Not pushing, just wondering :P

Major test Tuesday on a course I came into late, (Circuit Analysis II) so I'm basically needing to learn all of it. Reason I haven't started is due to working on other courses.

Also, trying to do my Thermo homework, due tomorrow, and basically beating my head against a brick wall, but I'm going to try that a little longer because I don't have a choice.

Plus, I have a pre-lab due tomorrow, but that's going to be getting done in the lab tomorrow as I don't currently have access to the software I need to do the lab.

Oh, and i'm supposed to take care of my grandad for a few hours today.

So ... any time spent not doing the last three things should be spent doing the first thing, because I will have zero time to study until about 8pm tomorrow. I could probably squeeze in a reply on a break, except we are talking about a 700+ word reply. I have to continue the conversation with Orion and then I wanted to get Erik's first diary entry in before Alexi got home...

So yeah. Probably not. Earliest I can do it is Wednesday, and even that's iffy because I'm moving into an apartment this week and I have a Thermo test on this material Friday.

I'll try and work on it in parts when I can make myself relax for the next few days. The stress is not conducive to writing.