[quote=@Dinh AaronMk] The problem with the CNT proposal is that though it might be possible: it's one of those things that aren't possible without rubber. And rubber isn't produced native in much of the world. You're not going to find rubber trees in Europe, North America, and synthetic rubber or poly-vinyl may not be on the list of things to produce in oil-producing regions (they might need to fuel their cars, lights, and basic electricity needs as well). And even without rubber you need to rely on some heavy engineering and incredibly low temperatures to pull argon gas from the air in cryogenic distillation. But then we come to the issue again that the requirements to meet may not be within reach of present societies. Rubber and vinyl deteriorates, cracks, and becomes brittle over time. I would know: I handle and deal with this stuff when it fails. Rubber and vinyl is the all important sealant for these processes. When they're over-used and gone then so does the product of this level of refinement. Producing the correct sort of CNTs requires sealed environments either totally free of oxygen or comprising an atmosphere of inert gases.[/quote]So? In spite of your "experience" this is the first time you hear about synthetic rubber? If needed we can make rubber even out of coal. And sure, in 2080 we still use rubber seals. Especially for underground factories made to last hundreds of years. Seriously, just stop. Nobody even cares about this detail here. This is fiction. Get your head warped around it. [quote]Allowing this too all the same brings us to the point I made in response to Frengo. It shifts the story from relying on remnants to capable able-bodied nation-states, which at that point we would have already restored the pre-existing nations and it's not really post-apoc in the sort the GM appears to want anymore.[/quote] Well, then you read something wrong. For starters the GM wants a nation game with lots of interactions between players. Not a player versus faceless wasteland setting. Besides, talk to the players who already have power armors and laser guns here. I don't see any part of the setting being hurt, do you? [quote=@Dinh AaronMk] The rest can be figured out or re-discovered on the surface. The possible extent of in-shelter manufacturing would be the basic tools and skill for shelter unkeep with spare metal parts to keep fans and wires in check. Anything bigger would mean that you're building a more expensive shelter than need-be with some hard to produce and procure materials inside. [/quote]You pretty much just contradicted yourself with this sentence. As for the part prior, no. Stop thinking about mere shelters and imagine a city of sorts built underground. For people to live for 200 years there they'd very much require that. if you think of that as excess then you very much just doomed your Vaulters to either death or a shitty life they were supposed to prevent.