"Mathematics is the gate and key to the sciences." - Roger Bacon

I think the issue here is forgoing the beauty of metaphors and examples, for simplicity in numbers. Numbers are in everything, they're expected to be, so we don't have to recite upon them all the time, however they can often be the deciding factors in combat posts. It's always more interesting to express a character's ability through feats of skill, rather than raw numerical values, but both interpret what's needed to be known. "He can wrestle two bears and win!" Or. "He can bench-press 500lbs." Both work, and that's what matters. What doesn't matter is; "he r rly stronk." Well how stronk, and what's the difference between being strong, and being stronk?

Avoiding math is fine, but lest we forget, the math is always there. In a world ruled by greed, almost anything can be narrowed down to a number. How many seconds are used up between actions, the melting temperature of various elements vs the base heat of others, how many bullets are flying and at what directions they come from, force in newtons, all of these things have numerical values. We can replace the use of numbers with depictions of how they work to make them more beautiful, but when push comes to shove, the numbers always have your back if you're logically correct.

@DLL

That's a bit of a stretch, because a) you've never seen me fight, b) my numerical information is largely in my profile for balancing purposes and almost never comes up in my IC posts and, c) I haven't once said that I prefer using numerical data to qualitative information, just that I don't think numerical information is a gassy by-product of Satan's fiery asshole to be avoided at all costs.

Like @MelonHead, most of the numerical data I use is in my profile, and it's designed to set limitations on my character. He has one ranged ability - to throw a bolt of lightning. I use numbers to define that ability two ways: first to define how far the attack can reach, and how fast the attack flies. Could I use some "relative" measurement? Sure, but as previously explained in my first post on the topic, that would just be an unnecessary qualification of information that's more easily explained with numbers. On the flipside, expecting someone to calculate the PSI of a punch is equally unnecessary quantification of information.

That's all it boils down to when it comes to using numbers: is using a number easier or more convenient as a means of explanation? Does it do a better job of conveying the information to your opponent? Does it provide an easy, immediate means of defining the limits of a character? If yes, use numbers. If no, forgo. It's not a question of preference, it's a question of using the tools available to provide my opponent with the information necessary to respond to my post, or a question of using the same tools to provide checks and balances for my character.

I'm not advocating for people to use numbers all the time, but I don't see any value in just ignoring a potential tool. It's like opening a toolbox and going "You know what? Fuck this wrench. I don't need it." Why are you throwing away a perfectly functional tool? Sure, no one expects you to use it in place of a hammer or screwdriver, but it's a perfectly good wrench. It has its purpose.

@Darth
I can see that.

Part of the issue, I imagine, is that writers, which most of us would consider ourselves to be to at least some extent, are going to dislike reducing writing to a series of quantifiable steps and equations, and yet I'd say most of us have been burned at least once by someone who's looking to do just that. Whether it's a natural engineer who craves precision and finds allegory and allusion frustratingly, possibly unfairly vague, or someone who has in turn been burned by someone else who managed to write posts so filled with allegory and allusion that there was no information in them, we've all encountered Equations Guy at least once or twice.

Nobody but another Equations Guy likes fighting Equations Guy. The more violent that dislike, the further towards Satan's-fiery-asshole the player's opinion of numbers veers. I will admit, much of my own opinion on numbers comes from my native high/heavily powered settings, where they really do tend to be almost completely meaningless. Comparing precise figures when the overall scope of two high-powered characters isn't tuned to the same wavelength ends very, very badly. It's why I go with advantage/disadvantage - simpler comparisons like that are more likely to allow the spirit of different characters to shine through and lead to more interesting contests at high power levels than trying to compare hundreds of tons to thousands of tons, or figure out different Mach values, or any of that nonsense. The speed-centric character gets the edge in speed, the strongman gets the edge in strength, the wizard has the edge in ether-blasting, so on and so forth. Give people what they're good at, insist on getting what you're good at, and see how things shake out. Only way I've ever found to make high-powered contests between strangers work out, especially for travelers like me and the rest of the SRI folks

If you intend to take a high-end character to other boards, you can't use fixed numbers - the baselines those numbers are compared to changes from board to board, usually drastically. Some 'high-level' boards see Mach 1 as outright cheating, while others might see Mach 5 as a good starting point for a speed-centric character. Getting one set of fixed, inflexible values to fit all these wildly different standards just doesn't work.

Anyways. Darth, @Melonhead, I didn't intend what I said as any kind of slight against you guys. I just believe that part of being a good player is knowing when personality/style clashes would result in a less-than-ideal experience and being willing to admit to that. I don't do low-end/mild powers fights, where the numbers are useful tools applied to a universal 'human norm' baseline, for shit. For folks who enjoy those, which seems to be the majority of the board, I'm a bad/unpleasant match. Heh, all there is to it, really.

@Darth Wholly unrelated to the topic, but I kinda want to fight you with LeeRoy.

Just because of how much effort you put into arguments, you have to put just as much into your posts. And I haven't gotten to be sarcastic lately.

I see @DLL as the guy who really doesn't want any peanut butter in his chocolate but @Darth just wants to let him know how delicious they taste together. Sure pure chocolate tastes kinda weird on its own but what Darth doesn't understand is how traumatized DLL was when Paul Reubens fed his dog peanut butter and forced him to listen to the dumb animal struggle with it for the rest of the night.

@Starfall I started the argument, and stepped out. Somehow I feel like I sowed the seeds of discord on accident.

@LeeRoy

It's okay, unless you've been through what we have you can never understand the savage nature of Pee Wee's Playhouse.

@Starfall
I went through something way darker and more perverse than I care to describe. So I did kinda go through my own personal hell, and I'm stronger for it.

@Starfall

Not really. See: the tool analogy. You don't use the wrench because you like it, nor do you use the wrench in place of a hammer. You use the wrench because it's the tool you need at the time. If you think you can hammer in a nail by stabbing it with a screwdriver, more power to you, all I'm saying is that the hammer might be more appropriate. In the sandwich context -- I'm not saying that peanut butter is delicious, I'm saying that peanut butter is an ingredient called for in some recipes. I'm not saying it's good, I'm not saying it's bad: I'm saying that there are some sandwiches that use peanut butter, so treating it like it's the leprosy-in-a-jar doesn't really do someone any good. It's okay if you don't like peanut butter, or if you do, just don't act like it doesn't have a place in certain recipes.. and, of the same token, don't try to put peanut butter on my French dip sandwich.

That's why I keep saying "Numbers are useful when appropriate" and not "I like numbers" or "You should use numbers a lot" or "I prefer using numbers versus X, Y, or Z." I'm not arguing that numbers are good, I'm arguing that they aren't bad.

@LeeRoy I don't really fight anymore. The last time I fought was 2011/2012. I'm trying to get back into it at some point, but with getting the GCL going I'm busy with that. I'm honestly not sure I can even write appropriately for fights anymore -- I've spent the past two years neck-deep in knocking out manuscripts, and my "roleplaying" and "prose" writing styles are very different. It's like going from driving a monster truck to a go-cart.

I might try and get some matches in with people from my community, and if I feel like I've knocked the rust off, I'll scrap with some people over here. I just wouldn't want to be a disappointment because I've been out of the game so long that I'm not entirely sure I know how to play properly anymore. I don't really care about winning or losing, but I do care greatly about having an entertaining fight, and I'm probably not going to be much of one while I'm still (re)finding my sea legs.

@Darth

That sure is a lot of words to respond to a joke. It's a good thing I have a short attention span.

Besides it was Reese's Peanut Butter Cup reference you plebeian. Who puts chocolate on a sandwich? You disgust me.

Fuck you, I used to eat chocolate syrup and peanut butter sandwiches. It's not my fault you can't handle a trip to flavor town you fucking filthy philistine.

I catch you eating that trash in my hood and you'll be on the news lined in chalk.

Complaining about how all your food tastes like chalk because you lost a hopscotch match, yeah, Shin-Ra keeps it real.

I wouldn't even want to go somewhere that doesn't appreciate the delicacy that is the peanut butter and chocolate syrup sandwich.

Uncultured savages!

EDIT:: Chocolate shell syrup confuses and infuriates me, and I won't tolerate its impure touch defiling my glorious peanut butter sandwich.

EDIT:: Also, nothing beats the peanut butter-peanut butter sandwich. Peanut butter, topped with dried peanut butter powder. Double peanut butter power.

The quality of our banter has declined as of late.

These are the end times.

Don't be mad because no one wants to eat a chip butty.

You Americans are a little obsessed with your peanut butter, probably because your chocolate sucks ;D

Chip buttys are amazing and fish and chips are a match made in heaven (and Portugal).