[quote=@Vilageidiotx] This gets really complicated with blacks in America because the majority don't have a clear idea of where exactly it is the come from. Immigrants from Europe have an easier time trace because so many can trace their ancestry back through records and such until one finds exactly where they came from. But most blacks in America descend from slaves, and though most of those were taken from the west coast of Africa, the slave trade itself was a messy thing that permeated most of central and southern Africa as well so that slave forts on the Ivory Coast and the Congo coast acted on the continent as a straw sucking up captives from the rest of the continent. Those slaves mixed without their ancestries being recorded so that generic black identity is inevitable. As for the individual thing, it sounds nice but it isn't going to happen. Humans aren't tigers, we are a tribal species. I guarantee you do it just as much as any the rest of us in this thread do, and your singular obsession with specific political movements would indicate that you've chosen your identity through groups possibly more strongly than anyone else here even if you are too proud to admit it. We define ourselves by group. It's a complicating factor but it's entirely human and we are as likely to shake it as we are to shake sexuality. I do say this as someone who more or less agrees with you on that point and honestly would prefer it if people stepped back and stopped beating their chest in the tribal battle-line to think about these things more thoroughly. But what are you going to do, people be people, and we aren't going to avoid that. That wouldn't create Libertarians though, just sharpen the resolve of those who already exist. [/quote] it brought them out of the woodwork, just as bad really.