@Dynamo Frokane I think it's fascinating. During the election I followed The_Donald fairly closely and /pol/ and Breitbart somewhat less closely. Though I disagree with him on maybe half of what he says I became a big fan of Milo as well. I suppose I became a fan of Milo the person but I wasn't really converted to his point of view (I'm not convinced he's really a believer in half the stuff he says either).
Every action produces an equal and opposite reaction and SJW-ism eventually produced its anti-thesis in the alt-right. Currently the alt-right's cultural product is vibrant and their impact on the pre-collage crowd is much larger than I think is generally recognized. The right wing is cool again and the far right wing is the cultural zeitgeist for a considerable number of white teenagers.
Right wing politics usually does pretty well among pre-college folk IMHO (at least among us white folk). Throw a dart in any suburban high school and you'll hit a Libertarian. The interesting thing will be to see how the current high-school cohort evolves in the Trump years. Which, I imagine, will depend on what the Trump years end up being defined by.
@Kratesis I think I should have been more clear. Since trump got elected its been pretty well established, that the EDGY shitposting, meme sharing Milo and Gavin McInnes fans are not actually Alt-Right. They have been called (and now self identify) as alt-lite. They are basically taking all the cool shit from the real movement and using it largely for entertainment and narcissism. I think this is what you were referring to as the alt-right.
I think the true Alt-Right kept their mouths shut about the Alt lite because they wanted these edgy kids to inflate numbers under their banner but now trump is elected they want to establish themselves as a serious movement without having to lug around the baggage of what is mostly a multi-racial, gamergate-esque, largely libertarian crowd.
The REAL alt-right was coined by Richard Spencer and is essentially the new, slightly more hip, internet savvy white nationalism crowd from AlternativeRight.com /pol/ Stormfront, Daily Stormer and Voat. They denounce Milo, Rebel Media, Sargon of Akkad etc because they have no interest in right leaning Anti-SJW popular culture. They believe in preserving the european people and keeping the gene pool 'pure' in an ethno-state. This is the real Alt-Right. Milo and Gavin are Race mixers, they would never be accepted into this movement and they never wanted to be, they wanted to ride the buzz of the memes for more you-tube views.
I would be more interested to how you feel about the alt-right in regards to their Ethno-nationalism, Race Realism and Anti-semitism (they vary on these topics, but they usually agree with 2 if not all 3).
<Snipped quote by Kratesis>
Throw a dart in any suburban high school and you'll hit a Libertarian.
@Dynamo Frokane I think that's a bit of a No True Scotsman fallacy. There is a substantive difference between white nationalists and alt-righters. Qualitatively the alt-right is high energy while white nationalism is focused energy. The alt-right is an emerging portion of the cultural zeitgeist while white nationalism is the latest head of an ancient hydra. Qualitatively the policies they endorse and the members they attract are quite different. Many of the highest profile alt-righters are minorities of some sort. Jews feature prominently; Milo and Ben Shapiro are extremely popular and being a minority who endorses Trump in a big way will make you a celebrity within their circles (see Joy Villa). In the white nationalist movement it isn't that way. While it isn't purely white men, there are some white women, it is almost entirely populated by white males.
Also, the alt-right is not a libertarian movement. Trump's election was the death of libertarianism as a political force in the USA. His policies are strongly anti-libertarian and he didn't even bother to pay lip service to the economic fundamentals of libertarianism. Conservative voters are clearly not moved by libertarian economic principles any longer.
I would be more interested to how you feel about the alt-right in regards to their Ethno-nationalism, Race Realism and Anti-semitism (they vary on these topics, but they usually agree with 2 if not all 3).
Man. Dangerous question lol. Hrm. Alright, I think white nationalism is a lot like communism. It's linked to failed regimes that are extremely unpopular and is largely a spent force outside of eastern Europe and Russia. I would say these elements pose a serious danger to the alt-right though; as one of Trump's kids might say they are poisoned skittles and you probably wouldn't eat any skittles out of the alt-right skittle bowl if one out of every one hundred was a racist white nationalist skittle.
That said, times are clearly changing. White nationalism has a chance to make a comeback (just like communism) because of broad shifts in society. As society becomes more diverse white voters will vote more and more like minorities and as they become a minority they will develop a racial consciousness as well. Racism is no longer the social kiss of death that it once was. Some ideas out of white nationalism will become mainstream due to demographic shifts just as some ideas out of communism will become mainstream due to automation (basic income, for example.
I think within the next fifty years you will see a republican party that wins 90 to 95 percent of the white vote in every election. Basic universal income will be a popular policy with both parties. Free market conservatism will be a complete non-starter with both parties. National elections will probably come down to mobilization along racial lines but the cycle of one two term democratic president and one two term republican president will probably continue. This might sound like good news for the communists and the white nationalists but I think both sides are going to be miserable when they get a little of what they think they want. What we could have had was better but we don't deserve it so we won't get it.
@Dynamo Frokane I think that's a bit of a No True Scotsman fallacy. There is a substantive difference between white nationalists and alt-righters. Qualitatively the alt-right is high energy while white nationalism is focused energy. The alt-right is an emerging portion of the cultural zeitgeist while white nationalism is the latest head of an ancient hydra. Qualitatively the policies they endorse and the members they attract are quite different. Many of the highest profile alt-righters are minorities of some sort. Jews feature prominently; Milo and Ben Shapiro are extremely popular and being a minority who endorses Trump in a big way will make you a celebrity within their circles (see Joy Villa). In the white nationalist movement it isn't that way. While it isn't purely white men, there are some white women, it is almost entirely populated by white males.
Also, the alt-right is not a libertarian movement.
Okay a few corrections there.
The No True Scotsman thing was very viable pre-trump. The Alt Right appeared to be a big swirling dance of a ton of different political leanings and cultural backgrounds. Post-trump its not the same thing.
The No true scotsman only really applies when all parties are claiming to be the true scotsman, the Alt Right is different. Richard Spencer, Andrew Anglin etc call Gavin and Milo 'Alt-Lite' and Gavin and Milo agree and say 'youre right, we aren't alt right we are alt lite, our movement is about the west, not about European people' so its not a true scotsman thing. The Alt-Lite (I'm just calling them this for convienience sake) have distanced themselves from the alt-right and have either called themselves alt-lite or New-Right but not Alt-right, there is not contention anymore for the title, the definitions are clear.
Milo and Ben Shapiro are different.
Milo isnt and never was Alt-right but was happy to use the asthetic to boost his profile, he has mentioned on several occasions that the 'real' alt right hate him and he has no interest in skin colour identity politics.
Ben Shaprio isnt even a Trump Supporter, he hates the Trump movement and is no fan of Milo either, hes an old school regan era conservative who only sees long term damage to the republican party. He is also an enemy of the Alt-Right, the real anti semites in the alt right hate him because hes jewish and pro isreal, and the shitposters hate him because hes Anti-Trump and Anti-Milo and they tease him with offensive jewish cartoons.
So to be clear there are no 'minority' Alt Righters. Milo is clever populist, and Ben Shapiro is very anti Trump, Anti Alt-Right. The prominent Alt Righters are Richard Spencer, Jared Taylor, Greg Johnson, Red Ice Radio, Vox Day to name a few.
Now as far as the racial demographics i'd say the alt lite is mostly young white men but there are a good chunk of minorities in there who are either with them or sympathise with them and then there are obviously just trump supporters of all colours. Remember that trump isnt Alt Lite or Alt Right (has a jewish son in law) hes just the presidential preference.
But the real Alt-Right? There are no minorities 'in' the alt-right there are a few sympathizers which become like honoroary minority figures like That Guy T who get referred to as 'Based Black Guy in Trump Hat' or something but the movement is about white identity at its core. Funnily enough True Alt righters do actually seem to get on well with black sepratists and nation of islam types who want to distance themselves from white people as they both have the same end goal which is racial segregation.
@Dynamo Frokane While I understand why they would want to distance themselves from a label that has become inconvenient and why they would want to define themselves as separate from the alt-right the political maneuvers of cultural actors isn't the deciding factor on who is defined as what.
This is the same as the whole 'Stalin wasn't really a communist' and 'Obama wasn't a true liberal' and 'Jeb is a RINO' deal. It's no true scotsmen. The alt right is a cultural phenomenon and Milo and Ben are part of and contributors to that phenomenon. White nationalism is a different phenomenon; animated by social forces distinct (but related to) those which animated the alt-right and with a history equally distinct from that of the alt right.
Imagine if you lived in the 1960's and smoked a lot of weed, went to a lot of protests against Vietnam, wore flowers in your hair and were into free love. You would be a hippie. Now if you were a political figure at that time you might claim that you were not a hippie and perhaps you would base that claim on your disagreement with the finer policy points of leading leftist figures or holding views consistent with older forms of liberalism. But regardless of your claims you would still be a hippie. No one is afforded the privilege to define themselves (or others) as is convenient for their agendas.
But we cant abandon all self determination just for the sake of easy labelling. Ben Shapiro is in no way alt-right. He never was. There is no 'distancing' himself from the label, he has never shared a pepe meme or endorsed trump. If the only claim to being alt-right is that hes relatively young and right wing then every republican under 35 is alt right, which simply isn't true. We determine people based on their ideologies, actions and self determinations. Anyone who says that Obama isnt left wing (or at least left of center) or stalin isnt a communist is misinformed or a conspiracy theorist, there is very little debate to be had there.
Milo isnt Alt-right, the alt right say he isnt alt right, He says he isnt Alt-Right and he fits little to none of the criteria of the alt right. He was associated with the Alt Right during the presidential election but that's not the same as buying into the full ideology.
Alt right was coined and created by Richard Spencer, its his label, and he and his people gets to decide what the ideology entails.
The Hippie argument is essentially an example of broad stereotyping. In the same way you might think someone is 'culturally' jewish because the eat bagels and talk in a nasally east coast accent.
I can put a biker jacket with a 1% patch but I'm not a member of the Hells Angels until the Hells Angels say I am.
The no true scotsman only applies when the parties involved are claiming to be the true scotsman.
Just out of interest, what would you say being 'alt right' entails? I mean Milo flirts close-ish with them (or he did before). But Ben Shapiro is so standard conservative I honestly dont know how you tie him to the movement at all. He's a Ted Cruz supporter.
@Kratesis Its a conversation, an exchange of ideas, A discussion about politics on a thread for politics. Feel free to respond or dont, there are no obligations here.
Basic universal income will be a popular policy with both parties. Free market conservatism will be a complete non-starter with both parties.
I am skeptical that white nationalism's "White identity" thing will take hold, if only because it seems like too broad an identity to take hold completely. But shit, maybe I'm in the minority of white people who don't see the need for white's only meetings or whatever. We'll see what happens.
<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx> I see what you did there.
Is that why they won't let you into highschools anymore?
