@The Harbinger of Ferocity If people are going to label you a bigot or homophobe because you legitimately cannot use the terminology, Jesus that's stupid, as long as you're not discriminating against them who tf cares? That's just plain stupid, it's not like you're calling a trans woman "he" just to be an asshole.

And I can raise you non-anecdotal evidence as well, if we'd not like to trade stories. And mayhap I am more involved in the LGBT community than most, which does make me partial to our struggle. I guess for me the trials I've faced have made me more emotionally open than ever. I've been sexually assaulted, had my brother try to convince me I should kill myself and then taking matters into his own hands, been through varying foster homes who treated me as a paycheck, it's been fucking hard. I guess we kinda ended up on different sides of the spectrum, though. I'm not going to lie, part of my argument is--"but shouldn't you care?" No form of discrimination is right. If we change people's mind with empathy and facts before they start drafting laws which oppress, before people decide it's okay to assault someone for simply being who they are, then that might end up saving a lot of people from hatred and grief.

@mdk I'm a disabled lesbian foster kid who lives in a homeless shelter~ And I'm not trying to best you out in "oppression points" or whatever (though I probably do lmao), what I was trying to say is that people are blatantly trying to deny the oppression which queer people face to a queer person. Love the ad hominem btw, I apologize if I've fucked us and gotten a bit salty in the past but I'm trying to argue mostly based on what we're saying.

I didn't mean to cut into the thing there. Y'all are having a conversation. I'm just making some jokes.

FWIW -- you're using a lot of anecdotes, which (objectively speaking here) is weak argument method. Cite some real cases -- you'll absolutely win the argument that prejudice exists in America (because of fucking course it does, christ).

I'm a relatively successful professional cis-woman with a stable home and a loving family. I'll probably die a millionaire.

It isn't always easy being an immigrant. It isn't always easy being a woman but the long and the short of it is I lose at the oppression points game.

I still care about others. I still want to make the world better for those who are worse off than me. I know, I'm a radical.

you'll absolutely win the argument that prejudice exists in America (because of fucking course it does, christ).

Wow. Maybe we can all come together after all :D

Of course you'd apparently have to be crazy to do something about it.

stat.ucla.edu/~cochran/pdf/MentalHeal…
www2.psych.ubc.ca/~schaller/Psyc591Re…
npc.umich.edu/publications/workingpap…
Sorry about that, shouldn't have been so lazy and only used anecdotes. ^^

I'm sorry that you had those experiences. I've watched people die in hospital beds, knowing that their partners don't have a legal right to be there, knowing they were going to receive no life insurance, knowing that they had no right to their partners body.

You do realize that that hasn't been a thing for like 7 years?

stat.ucla.edu/~cochran/pdf/MentalHeal…
www2.psych.ubc.ca/~schaller/Psyc591Re…
npc.umich.edu/publications/workingpap…
Sorry about that, shouldn't have been so lazy and only used anecdotes. ^^

Are you googling these? They're (1) about self-reported discrimination compared against mental health which is, uh...... a goes-both-ways sort of conclusion, (2) an article about racism from Y2K, and (3) a term paper ACTUAL RESEARCH PAPER BY AN ACTUAL PhD, my mistake -- but also an article on racism. POINT BEING all pretty tangential. Support that argument! The Pulse Nightclub Shooting, for instance. Actual mass murder of gay people for being gay. That's a real thing that really happened in the real actual USA and it's fucking disgusting. And see? Cased closed. Violent homophobia is demonstrably real and deadly.

@mdk I was grabbing them from my bookmarks, sorry. And generally when I bring up topics like that people tend to dismiss them as less common than other forms of discrimination or not indicative of a larger problem, so I figured I'd grab some scientific papers. Sigh.

Also, it was a thing only seven years ago. Seven. And some people are still complaining about it/want to reverse it. People in high positions of authority. You can still be fired for being gay or trans in 28 states as well, I believe.

You do realize that that hasn't been a thing for like 7 years?

I know right? Can you believe that this sort of heinous crap was only 7 years back? I'm glad we have completely cleared up discrimination in that time period.

@NightinGem

The moral of my story is not the fact that I am extremely dissociative to human beings and have difficulty in seeing their emotions, or the meanings behind them, but that people are too swift to judge on that side of the argument. The majority I find myself a component of really are indifferent to those issues, not because there's no heart, but because they are overblown. Again, while I do feel bad for the situations you have explained, I cannot allow it to cloud good judgment. A small proportion of the United States that has predominantly minor grievances should not dictate to the majority really anything. Their role should be awareness and convincing, not compelling, others to why they are right.

Because the fact of the matter is, orientation aside, they are all still people biologically and beyond question. I state again that I do not care who or what you are, but when you impose upon me your belief system, I can no longer be idle with my patience.

For myself, trading stories are miss after miss. They have not the emotional impact or force to them on either front, be it yours or mine. I can only argue from the points that I can observe or am aware of, namely being that I have not seen any significant levels of concern on this front. If we were all say, in the Middle East, I might have to concede that the violence and hatred against non-traditional sexuality is overwhelming. Here in the United States, the most I can note are the odd people being needlessly cruel and the vast majority being indifferent - a factor little different from anything else in life.

To continue, yes, you speaking about your stories shows the same bias mine would if I were speaking to exotic feline conservation and how counter-poaching needs to be increased as a mortal deterrent. We are loyalists to our own sections, so we are not about to fool anyone there we are unbiased parties that should be listened to as the head of reason. We ended up on different sides of the spectrum, but not for a moment will I lie to you and say, "I knew you were going to have some sad story to share."

In reality, to help you understand my perspective, I viewed your remarks at face value and literal interpretations. The only way I can or should; sometimes a weakness can be a strength, as is with this case.

And yes, I do care. That is the part I find most amusing about this, because I have no qualms or second thoughts about defending someone else at the cost to my own person, even under threat of injury or death. In many ways, my life choices reflect this and my mentality does as well. There would be no question that if I encountered a man assaulting a transsexual person that I would immediately intervene. I might disagree spiritually and personally with a transsexual, but they are free to live their lives - especially without threat to life or limb.

Lastly, can you please refer to me what form of legislative discrimination against non-traditional sexualities is being put into draft? Rather, any at all discriminatory legal documentation in process? To my current awareness, this is not an issue here in the United States.

<Snipped quote by mdk>

I know right? Can you believe that this sort of heinous crap was only 7 years back? I'm glad we have completely cleared up discrimination in that time period.

Even before that though, I was looking for documented examples of it actually happening and I found three. And in two of them, the person got to come in anyway after a brief (but wildly offensive) forced-absence, and in the third case it wasn't someone on their deathbed but someone with a fever.

My point being, you know, Democrats used to string black people up from trees and light them on fire. PERSPECTIVE. A little bit of perspective here. It's not so bad these days, really.

I believe.

CITE IT.

I'll make a masterdebater out of you yet.

edit: there it is, you got it

@The Harbinger of Ferocity
outandequal.org/2017-workplace-equali… This is already in draft, but in 28 states, one can be fired for being gay or trans.

South Dakota passed a law allowing foster and adoption agencies that receive state funding to reject LGBT parents in grounds of religious objection.

hrc.org/blog/100-anti-lgbtq-bills-int… Here's a neatly compiled list with sources and explanation~

<Snipped quote by Penny>

Even before that though, I was looking for documented examples of it actually happening and I found three. And in two of them, the person got to come in anyway after a brief (but wildly offensive) forced-absence, and in the third case it wasn't someone on their deathbed but someone with a fever.

My point being, you know, Democrats used to string black people up from trees and light them on fire. PERSPECTIVE. A little bit of perspective here. It's not so bad these days, really.

It's almost like political parties changed ideologies at some post in time. Also, I fucking hate that argument that because things aren't as bad that you shouldn't complain. "Sure you can be fired for being gay or transgender in the US and we're constantly trying to limit your rights to adopt and to scapegoat trans people as pedophiles and force them to use the bathroom their genetalia corresponds to, despite the fact that this won't limit sexual assault and is more likely to cause trans people to be assaulted themselves! But hey! We're not killing you like in the Middle East."

Even before that though, I was looking for documented examples of it actually happening and I found three. And in two of them, the person got to come in anyway after a brief (but wildly offensive) forced-absence, and in the third case it wasn't someone on their deathbed but someone with a fever.

I have only the poor evidence of my own experiences, which are apparently anecdotal and thus not to be admitted. The gentleman I saw it happen to couldn't didn't have legal counsel and although I suggested he contact the ACLU (for which I was spoken to at some length) nothing ever came of it.

My point being, you know, Democrats used to string black people up from trees and light them on fire. PERSPECTIVE. A little bit of perspective here. It's not so bad these days, really.

Ok? So because people used to lynch black people I should ignore the racism I see now? People used to sell their daughters and force widows to be burned alive with their husbands (I use the past tense optimistically), I guess we should throttle back on this sexism thing. At least we aren't being burned alive.

But I get it. Democrats.

False equivalencies everywhere.

Misrepresentation of ideas everywhere.

"Sure you can be fired for being gay or transgender in the US and we're constantly trying to limit your rights to adopt and to scapegoat trans people as pedophiles and force them to use the bathroom their genetalia corresponds to, despite the fact that this won't limit sexual assault and is more likely to cause trans people to be assaulted themselves! But hey! We're not killing you like in the Middle East."

Pulse. They're killing you over here, too! But moving on.

You (almost certainly) have more perspective on the bathroom issue than I do. Tell me something. From my ignorant EVIL CIS WITE MALE POV, the very first time I ever heard of this as a problem was shortly after the SCOTUS legalized marriage. Never once in my entire life had I heard a whisper about it before -- and suddenly it was the biggest social injustice in the country that bathrooms in 2016 were like bathrooms in 2015. It has never made sense to me -- how the fuck would anybody know what your genitals look like in a bathroom? Are people checking your genitals in the bathroom? What is or was or has been preventing a trans person from just doing their thing? I do not understand and I would like to understand. I can guess but my guesses are all lobbyist-money related.

False equivalencies everywhere.

Misrepresentation of ideas everywhere.

selective reading incomprehension. When a point can be brushed off if it was a different point, it becomes a different point.

<Snipped quote by Dark Wind>

selective reading incomprehension. When a point can be brushed off if it was a different point, it becomes a different point.

-- MDK's First Law of Projection

<Snipped quote by mdk>

-- MDK's First Law of Projection

ARE YOU SAYING WE'RE NOT AT WAR WITH EURASIA????

@mdk Oh, it definitely is related to lobbyists, who are trying to pander to those who are discriminatory.

...when did I ever say I hate cisgender white men? The dumbasses who discriminate against them because they happen to be born into positions of privilege disgust me, it's not their fault, don't be the fuckin' discriminatory people you're fighting. Plus there are civil rights issues surrounding them, particularly men--men are raped and denied help (or even accused of liking it, or being the rapist!), denied custody, etc, and that's something I also want to bring awareness to. I'm not going to discriminate against you simply because you're not a minority, what kind of terrible logic is that??