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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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@Dynamo Frokane

Considering you did not want to participate in actually breaking down who or what Generation Identity is or is not, consider me deeply amused you have now performed a heel-turn on the matter, but I digress. To the topic at hand I did listen to your link and assessed it as an outsider, which I am.

Here are the following notes I derive from it, of which might vary in length or response, but that is not the point.


What do I believe white nationalism is? If you took everything just described, militarized it, removed the protection and acknowledgement of other peoples and races right to identities and life, a sense of superiority and supremacy, and then went on the offense of it. That is the shortest, most summed way I can describe to you when, where, and how you would see my opinion shift on the examples you gave. Mind you I am utterly far from being invested in their message or movement, but I do share some agreements with them and to be perfectly frank, found nothing they said ideologically offensive or alarming.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Mao Mao
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<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

You can, of course, be conservative without voting for the Republican Party but if you do vote for them, you ARE going along with the anti-gay agenda that many of its members appear to subscribe to.


<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

I think its fairly clear the conservative is being read as Republican in this instance. Even if not, the very best you can can say about this person is that they are ideologically sympathetic to the coalition of people who have historically been committed to pushing anti-LBTQ policies. It isn't hard to see why people might react that way.


Or, you could realize that excommunicating people because they have different opinion is disgusting. This kind of shit would just divide up people even more. And we definitely need more tension in the sweet year of 2018!
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Or, you could realize that excommunicating people because they have different opinion is disgusting.


This lets all get along narrative is all well and good but functionally it provides a smoke screen under which reprehensible views survive.

What if those people are Nazis? What if those people tell their children they are going to burn in hell if they love someone of the same sex? What if those people think grabbing a woman by the pussy is awesome? I'm totally ok with 'excommunicating' them and they are welcome to 'excommunicate' me. Fuck those people.

Do I think you should never talk to a conservative? Obviously not but I don't have a particular moral obligation to include them in my life either (although I sometimes have a professional one).


Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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What if those people are Nazis? What if those people tell their children they are going to burn in hell if they love someone of the same sex? What if those people think grabbing a woman by the pussy is awesome? I'm totally ok with 'excommunicating' them and they are welcome to 'excommunicate' me. Fuck those people.

Do I think you should never talk to a conservative? Obviously not but I don't have a particular moral obligation to include them in my life either (although I sometimes have a professional one).


So the Nationalist Socialist Party. Most moderate Muslims. And Bill Clinton? :I

So, a particular moral obligation to "include" them in life. So, if any of your family or friends were to be right leaning. You'd consider it you doing -them- a favor, like your forgiving them for their sins. Sounds rational to me. Professional sounding too. :I
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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@SleepingSilence If one of my family members were a Nazi or a KKK member or some such, you can bet your ass I would have nothing at all to do with them.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Bill Clinton?


Yes, I have cut Bill Clinton out of my life.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by POOHEAD189
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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Pepperm1nts
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<Snipped quote by Penny>
So the Nationalist Socialist Party.




"I thought North Korea was a dictatorship, but their name says they're a democratic people's republic, so they must be democratic." - SleepingSilence, probably

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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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What do I believe white nationalism is? If you took everything just described, militarized it, removed the protection and acknowledgement of other peoples and races right to identities and life, a sense of superiority and supremacy, and then went on the offense of it. That is the shortest, most summed way I can describe to you when, where, and how you would see my opinion shift on the examples you gave. Mind you I am utterly far from being invested in their message or movement, but I do share some agreements with them and to be perfectly frank, found nothing they said ideologically offensive or alarming.


No this would be militant white supremacy, not white nationalism.

So at least I know now in writing you don't have any problem with white nationalism and have some agreements with it. So dont try to act offended as if this label is a 'new low'. You are literally saying it for me.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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@Dynamo Frokane

No, you again continue to shove words into my mouth as to what I do or do not believe, see anything about how I do not necessarily note wrong with what was said on the sample size, but so too noted it has no interest or connection to me, and that I had ample disagreement with their philosophy or approach. What you are attempting to do is play a game of "Gotcha!"; it isn't clever or new. You are still gravely out of line for attempting to label me something I do not stand by, believe, or even adopt for myself - I will repeat again that I do not follow them, let alone anyone else, and that so long as their political beliefs system is not causing actual harm, as in with this case it is not causing the maltreatment social or otherwise to other people's, cultures, or races, I do not care.

Carrying on, you asked me what I would call "white nationalism", so do not attempt to get all up in arms when I gave my opinion about what I would find alarming or worrying about their movement based on what little I do know of them. As far as I am concerned and likely will continue to be, you have an ineffective identitarian movement that is openly aware it cannot readily sway the American public, because as they admit, the concept goes against the core identities of the United States, and that it is attempting to be utterly apolitical.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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@The Harbinger of Ferocity Basically your standard for racism is so laughably low, that as long as group aren't actively harassing people or calling them slurs they can't be racist.

You wouldn't consider the fact that they dont regard non-white europeans as part of the desired demographic and would actively seek policies to marginalise them and ultimately remove them, as is what an identitarian ethno-state is. But again you want to play selective ignorance, you say you know little about them but are confident enough to say they are doing nothing wrong. Your train of thought is wildly inconsistent and its beoming more so as you are going through mental gymnastics to defend an organisation that you mostly disagree with, because you feel spiteful that I can call James Allsup a racist and prove it. Move on.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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@Dynamo Frokane

At what point did I say they were not a "racist movement", as their goal is at least in part based around race, as they define it, and focusing on the differences there of, if any? No less, as they themselves spoke about, they are more interested in preserving a national identity and culture than a race and are apparently against violence to achieve these ends. Is there something wrong with allowing them to hold that belief when they are displaying no apparent illegal activity?

Considering you showed me an eighteen minute long clip on an organization I know nothing about and then demanded I find it "racist" and them "white nationalists", consider me skeptical of your motives when they said nothing at large about "not regarding non-white Europeans as part of their desire demographic". The most I consistently heard is they want immigrants removed, a term they themselves never define, meaning you could well be as right as you could be wrong; I, as the uninitiated audience, do not know the answer either way. It is not selective ignorance to state, firmly as I have, "Based on what little I do know of them and what I have seen, they do not seem that bad.", which is why I previously in the extended dialogue spoke to the lines that you might well be withholding information or evidence from me in a blatant attempt to make your point. I am going to err on that as truth because I distrust you and your motives in this argument.

I am not defending their organization at all, I have repeatedly said from what I know of them they are not meeting the wildly thrown about labels being used, something which they themselves acknowledge happens; it is no secret the concept they are backing is going to naturally be pinned with any number of other things, some of which are, by themselves, neither right nor wrong while others are certainly evil. Why is this? Because other groups who they share a sphere of interest and overlap with did these things. It isn't "mental gymnastics" to sit back and say accusing them of more than what we have on hand, in this case the video, and suggest things are not being portrayed fairly. Again, if you have actual proof of them taking actions that harm or discriminate against people, by all means do share it.

Yet here we are again on this topic, why do you continue to assume I am protecting James Allsup? I have told you repeatedly and will again state I do not know much about him, do not care at all about him, and that while there is evidence to call him a racist, suggesting it is more likely than not, I am not going to go around accusing people of wrongthink or of being whatever label of the month is popular. Why not? Unlike others I believe that so long as he is doing no harm, he is free to hold his opinions, even if I am not fond of them. This is the third time you have accused me of somehow backing Allsup when I have repeatedly said, "I haven't seen convincing reason or evidence to so much as care about him."

You are the one throwing around "Move on." yet here we are, on a topic you said you had neither the time nor energy to explain, declined to provide your evidence of why you are outright correct, but are harping on it and crowing as loud as you can. To borrow the same sort of mentality you are executing consistently now with this, "Get off your high horse." If you have something to prove the organization is more insidious than it seems to be based on what you have shown, do so. Show Generation Identity starting and leading a riot, show them mistreating or disrespecting others, show them acting against national interests by disparaging race of their own countrymen, on, and on, and on.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Pepperm1nts
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@Dynamo Frokane
they are more interested in preserving a national identity and culture than a race and are apparently against violence to achieve these ends.


They are interested in an ethno-state. A white ethno-state. And they have spoken about "peaceful ethnic cleansing". In order to form their desired ethno-state they want to remove all non-whites. Many of them also speak out against interracial marriage and sex. So stop trying to paint them as if they're just nationalists that want to protect American culture. Your claim that "it is more about national identity than race" is completely wrong and ignorant of the fact that, to them, both of those things are intertwined. They believe the national identity of the state should revolve around the white race, specifically. Hence why they want a white ethno-state. Race is as important and central to their beliefs as nationalism. That said, I agree they have the right to say whatever they want. However, I understand completely why many people have a problem with what they have to say. And just as it is their right to speak, it is everyone else's right to protest them and their beliefs.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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@Pepperm1nts

That would be wonderful if someone would provide a shred of that evidence rather than a rambling eighteen minute video that covered only the details I listed and spoke to at length in my reply on it. Thus far I have one person whose motives I am deeply suspicious of and now your account, which I too am suspicious of.

I would like to see the "peaceful ethnic cleansing" evidence and the fact that only whites are permitted in their state. I am not sure how many times I need reiterate that based on what has been presented there is no real suggestion of that.

No less I am certainly not painting them as anything of those just wanting to "preserve American culture". I have before and will again state their mindset does not match with the ideals of the United States and the historical American intetests, let alone my own, examples being they appear flat out against immigration and imply they are against any sort of assimilation. Does that mean that is what they believe? No, thus far I haven't seen that and the sole reason I haven't a care to is because of the fact they have yet to prove to be a threat or concern.

As far as protest goes, certainly, but one might recall this goes back to the United Kingdom and how they temporarily barred people as if they had commit a crime, essentially under the premise they "thought wrong". If one is looking for the point I am making in all of this, the true root of it, it is that it is a glaring double standard. The accused organization might legitimately be wrong in ideological process to me, but there is no ground to do what was done unless something is being withheld.

To further emphasize this I am asking anyone to prove otherwise, yet no one has as of yet. Note the utter lack of denial by my hand that the accused do believe these things or that I stand defending them against their accusers simply because they are "my opposition".

As a late addition, I posted their demands on the previous page, which outline their vision and intended process. Does this mean they adhere to it? Of course not, but I cannot find any mention of or implications to the suggested in their core identity. I presume the accusations deal with members who do hold more extreme belifs than those stated, which goes back to an organizational issue and not so much an ideological one.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by Pepperm1nts
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@Pepperm1nts
I would like to see the "peaceful ethnic cleansing" evidence and the fact that only whites are permitted in their state. I am not sure how many times I need reiterate that based on what has been presented there is no real suggestion of that.


splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist…
edition.cnn.com/2016/12/06/politics/r…
theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016…

Or look at Richard Spencer's wikipedia page, where the claim is mentioned and cited: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_B._Spencer

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Hidden 7 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by Polymorpheus
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Dolerman
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After looking at the Generation Identity symbol, I noticed something strange...


It looks a lot like the Overwatch symbol...




Even racists can be inspired by the legendary waifu fortress 2
Hidden 7 yrs ago 5 yrs ago Post by Polymorpheus
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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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Thank you, @Pepperm1nts, for actually posting links to suggest some forming backing. While I am not confident in some of their validity, they are only tangentially related to Generation Identity, one might actually have potential grounds to it but it stays almost exclusively to an individual. However, you did indeed prove the point finally there is information suggesting they act on more than they state based on affiliations, but is very inconclusive. As in return my searching on the matter noted Generation Identity was and is influenced by Alain de Benoist and Guillaume Faye, two who have reported contact with Richard Spencer and have appeared at events associated with the Alt-Right. Contrarily I noted no obvious evidence to suggest they adhere to any of the three names put forward to any notable extent.

To note, attempting to tie any of these names together to Generation Identity largely failed in results - off the cuff remarks, almost all opinion pieces or known Left-wing affiliates, but nothing substantial even in those. They are correct in a few regards, such as suggesting the Generation Identity factions in Europe are influencing activities of similar, but radically different groups in the United States, namely their audience, but are not finding the same success; largely because the social and political associations, such as the issue I have said many times over that the "ethnic, cultural, national, and racial" lines they seem to focus on do not so much exist in parallel to the United States. A wonderful example of this is how the United States is not suffering a literal invasion brought on by their government of Middle Eastern, namely Muslim, descendants who are not immigrating and are starting to methodically dismantle the countries - the United States has severe illegal immigration issues of its own, but not a "replacement" sort. No less, there are factions and even standards of law that are strongly entrenched in the philosophy of Americans that are more resistant to these, even in their own government, but I digress.

To call on a source that is vehemently against Generation Identity and identitarianism, and has seemingly superior research, Hope not Hate;

Defend Europe received initial wider attention via North American vloggers Brittany Pettibone and Lauren Southern, had crowdfunding coming in from across the world on US alt-light troll Charles C. Johnson’s WeSearchr site, and had media support from figures including Frauke Petry (previously of Alternative for Germany), Nigel Farage, Katie Hopkins, Breitbart News, David Duke (former Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan), alt-right figures Richard Spencer and Jared Taylor and leading Nazi website The Daily Stormer.

This is perhaps the strongest direct link I can note out of all I could find that more or less had any sponsors of racism to it and could be validated, however I note this is, for lack of better words, utterly unsurprising. The actual Alt-Right has inherent elements of identitarian politics in it and some of the so-called "Alt-Right" hold similar values or objectives with it. It only stands to reason that with a common interest, validity of an ethno-state, they make for convenient bedfellows despite having professed and well known oppositions to interests in one another, namely that the proposed objectives of Generation Identity are ideologically at odds with anything political; they aim to be their own entity, not an arm, let alone sponsoring related tactics. There is other accounts of their activity involving "Alt-Right" personalities who these other factions are opposed to.

I consistently note this theme by many stating the differences in portrayal from the accusations. I believe with confidence, to close this out, that the controversy surrounding Generation Identity revolves around a few things. First and foremost, any nationalist system, especially one that has any sort of ethnic or cultural leaning, will be right or wrong judged against those that have come before it, many of which have committed tremendous, grievous, and heinous crimes against humanity. This, in conjunction with an unfriendly media to their ideology - see the following point - has spun their power, influence, and angle greatly out of proportion. They have been made into the "other" and further divided along lines of the New Left and New Right, even further by American versus European politics.

Second, it is my belief and understanding that the hysterical media, quick to label anything not kosher with their agenda, will portray anything - especially any patriotic, national, or culturally aimed approach, even more so all three - as racist and supremacist. They have repeatedly done so, crying wolf in the United States and abroad, especially so in this case of Europe, where Generation Identity formed in France and then spread. The concept Generation Identity is rallying around, preserving their historical Europe, their classical people and nations, is an admittedly scary thought thanks to history. However, I can find nothing legitimate to these claims - at most I keep seeing continual, constant reporting that it more or less "Isn't nice to say the illegal immigrants, migrants, and refugees to Europe need to go home." and that they take issue with the Islamization of Europe. In fact, a fair number of these claims make it a point to nudge that their voicing of this opinion is what "They call this process 'freedom of speech'." and that somehow being against political correctness is wrong, but back to the topic.

Third, it is my understanding in my brief assessment that Generation Identity as an organization is not engaged in actual crimes that would clash against their systems of belief, outlined on a previous page; they are not disparaging, mistreating, or inflicting harm on seemingly anyone, contrarily I see reports of their counter-protesters attacking them. At most they seem to have done is attempt to intercept refugee boats and been found guilty of wrongthink, but that is not the focus. I see that the perceived threat is drummed up more than the actual threat because it is politically convenient to their opponents, namely those predominantly in power, and who also hold strong, beneficial relationships with the media.

Fourth, there appears to only be very loose ties to individuals who share similar opinions, in that is not the issue, but their endorsement is. I have addressed this before, but it bears repeating again; it should be utterly no surprise actual known white supremacists, or their organizations, support a movement as the preservation of the historically white continent of Europe and are against immigration, refugees, and Islam. To put this more directly, this is a "no-brainer", in that yes, of course they are going to endorse something that furthers their ideals. Let alone so called and so accused "Alt-Right" factions being tossed into it, see above for the media references and how the media has, for the past few years, effectively labeled any dissenters a part of the Radical Right. I must note I cannot find this being reciprocated by Generation Identity, who seem adamant on an ideological basis that they do not want to be any part of that and wish to be their own entity.

To conclude, I find the accusations lacking in proportion to the freely available facts about them and the responses against them, down to some of their members or those associated with them, by government agencies an infringement of actual freedom of speech; as goes the origin of this entire endeavor and conversation. Ultimately, my assessment holds that there is a blatant double standard enforced and in play. Not to be neglected, while I do not agree with a number of concepts and pursuits of the organization, Generation Identity, I cannot find reasonable ground to confirm or believe that which is being shouldered on them is anything short of feigned, artificial hysteria, disproportionate to any actual, legitimate concerns.

I have no further comments to add to the matter of my belief or findings, so I will close with this; the reaction is ill proportioned to the proclaimed transgressions. The accusations stand far larger in scope than the reality presented. However, it is with utmost importance I note that an organization as this does indeed have tremendous incentive and potential to seek less noble or honorable interests in their pursuits as history has taught us time and time again. While I cannot speak for them, or the future, I do not believe this faction to be a credible threat as claimed.
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