@Letter Bee

If we're operating on the basis that Muhammad Ali has at least half-independence in the eyes of some or most of the European courts: no. Those would be core Turkish territories and what trade is going on would be between Egypt and the Ottomans, who probably being salty that they didn't wrestle a contentious subject back into order may not be willing to sell those resources in order to curb their influence on the Mediterranean

@Letter Bee

If we're operating on the basis that Muhammad Ali has at least half-independence in the eyes of some or most of the European courts: no. Those would be core Turkish territories and what trade is going on would be between Egypt and the Ottomans, who probably being salty that they didn't wrestle a contentious subject back into order may not be willing to sell those resources in order to curb their influence on the Mediterranean

Hmm, do Syria and Cilicia have timber-able woods, then? Or goods that the French or Russians might desire enough to exchange timber and technology for?

@Letter Bee

No. As far as I know neither region are known for precious metals and any precious metals they have would have had to be imported in exchange for exports or as taxes for through-passing caravans. Or direct spending on the Ottoman court in the region. The timber of those territories may not be wide spread enough either for any commercial use, which is not to mention trees that develop in arid environments don't tend to be tall enough, straight enough, or regular enough for ship building (cyprus trees tend to be short and skinny, olive and nut trees too knotted, and if you were to go extreme and go to Australia where Eucalyptus can be tall enough it is also too hard and far too knotted to plane down to regular boards). So Egypt would have to still export timber in exchange for gold or direct exchange of commodities (Fiat vs Commodity Money).

To that point as outlined in the article Egypt had to make use of French expertise imported into the country and utilized a shipyard in Cairo built by Napoleon to even make the ships that were disassembled and caravaned to the Red Sea for use in the Arab campaigns that are the subject of the essay. But:

The French would be willing to sanction some small amount of ship building timber to Egypt for an amount of commodity in exchange if not just straight gold. But the French will not send significant amount of timber so as to not make the British or Ottomans too upset and maintain a regional balance.

@Letter Bee

No. As far as I know neither region are known for precious metals and any precious metals they have would have had to be imported in exchange for exports or as taxes for through-passing caravans. Or direct spending on the Ottoman court in the region. The timber of those territories may not be wide spread enough either for any commercial use, which is not to mention trees that develop in arid environments don't tend to be tall enough, straight enough, or regular enough for ship building (cyprus trees tend to be short and skinny, olive and nut trees too knotted, and if you were to go extreme and go to Australia where Eucalyptus can be tall enough it is also too hard and far too knotted to plane down to regular boards). So Egypt would have to still export timber in exchange for gold or direct exchange of commodities (Fiat vs Commodity Money).

To that point as outlined in the article Egypt had to make use of French expertise imported into the country and utilized a shipyard in Cairo built by Napoleon to even make the ships that were disassembled and caravaned to the Red Sea for use in the Arab campaigns that are the subject of the essay. But:

The French would be willing to sanction some small amount of ship building timber to Egypt for an amount of commodity in exchange if not just straight gold. But the French will not send significant amount of timber so as to not make the British or Ottomans too upset and maintain a regional balance.

We'll give you Sudanese Gold, then, as well as allow French Egyptologists to roam all throughout Egypt and Sudan and get preferential treatment over other nations' scholars.

I will have the obelisks to decorate Paris with

I will have the obelisks to decorate Paris with

Sure. How much timber is that worth?

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>

Sure. How much timber is that worth?

Don't rock the boat you're already giving access to French academics, the country should count itself lucky that they're paying anyone with free time to by their porters and teamsters.

@Letter Bee

Bee, under which circumstance do you think France is buying Egyptian cotton.

And secondly, under which circumstance would a private merchant be operating in Egypt when the Egyptian state acts as the sole purchaser and seller of all goods in the Egyptian realm, as it is also the sole land-owner of all Egypt.

@Letter Bee

Bee, under which circumstance do you think France is buying Egyptian cotton.

And secondly, under which circumstance would a private merchant be operating in Egypt when the Egyptian state acts as the sole purchaser and seller of all goods in the Egyptian realm, as it is also the sole land-owner of all Egypt.

1.) For the War with Russia, with Egypt selling for lower prices but at greater bulk.

2.) Oh, my god; I forgot about that. Damn myself. Perhaps he could have been allowed to lease out the land from the state? Or I can retcon him into being a state official?

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>

1.) For the War with Russia, with Egypt selling for lower prices but at greater bulk.

2.) Oh, my god; I forgot about that. Damn myself. Perhaps he could have been allowed to lease out the land from the state? Or I can retcon him into being a state official?

1) you didn't actually read it

2) no, he would have to be an agent of the state. The regime of Muhammad Ali wouldn't have the power it has without forcing people to do shit for it.

<Snipped quote by Letter Bee>

1) you didn't actually read it

2) no, he would have to be an agent of the state. The regime of Muhammad Ali wouldn't have the power it has without forcing people to do shit for it.

1.) Sorry; let me do so right now.

2.) I'll delete what I posted.

3.) Read it. So the French will only buy cotton from Egypt if Egypt lowers its rates to below what the English give?

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>

3.) Read it. So the French will only buy cotton from Egypt if Egypt lowers its rates to below what the English give?

You again prove you did not read it, or read it very well. Neither did you understand it, if you did.

<Snipped quote by Letter Bee>

You again prove you did not read it, or read it very well. Neither did you understand it, if you did.

The French are planning to grow cotton elsewhere as a long-term solution; I got that. I just thought they'd buy from Egypt in the short-to-medium term (which granted, might have been wishful thinking on my part).

Edit: That said, my thought processes have been getting erratic (again) lately. Sorry for the inconvinience.

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>

The French are planning to grow cotton elsewhere as a long-term solution; I got that. I just thought they'd buy from Egypt in the short-to-medium term (which granted, might have been wishful thinking on my part).

Edit: That said, my thought processes have been getting erratic (again) lately. Sorry for the inconvinience.

Bee, you're god modding with posts like the one you keep trying to put out.

<Snipped quote by Letter Bee>

Bee, you're god modding with posts like the one you keep trying to put out.

Yeah, it's unintentional; I didn't mean anything ill.

Hmm, want to help me brainstorm ideas for what I can write about instead?

<Snipped quote by Dinh AaronMk>

Yeah, it's unintentional; I didn't mean anything ill.

Hmm, want to help me brainstorm ideas for what I can write about instead?

That a non-negligible number of people in Egypt were cutting off their hands, fingers, or blinding themselves by dripping rat poison into their eyes to escape enlistment in Muhammad Ali's army or corvee work system, or emigrating from the country all together, and that by and large you control the lands that Muhammad Ali controls now, who would be inhabited by people not at all happy with the fact that now all their shit can be confiscated as the centralized property of the state, his state.

<Snipped quote by Letter Bee>

That a non-negligible number of people in Egypt were cutting off their hands, fingers, or blinding themselves by dripping rat poison into their eyes to escape enlistment in Muhammad Ali's army or corvee work system, or emigrating from the country all together, and that by and large you control the lands that Muhammad Ali controls now, who would be inhabited by people not at all happy with the fact that now all their shit can be confiscated as the centralized property of the state, his state.

I like it, especially the latter part. So basically, another rumbling of popular discontent like in the Palestinian Revolt.

Compelled mostly to always be researching, I have come across some material that is relevant to you @Letter Bee and how you might be perceiving Egypt.

Legacy Of The Development Policy of Muhammad Ali

tl;dr - Muhammad Ali's centralization policies had a dire effect on the Egyptian economy. While it aided in the industrialization of the Egyptian economy it was predominately centered on a mono-culture of cotton only which devastated agriculture on the long term, as well as provided the basis for an unstable development cycle where the state rose and fell depending on the global market. Egypt did well when the cotton economy was at a high and supplies elsewhere were generally low, and The State could charge European merchants higher prices according to the whims of market forces; but did not bring in that much money.

Likewise as I have told you before; all lands in Egyptian being owned by The State and Muhammad Ali by decree, as well as the rates to tax collection and Islamic charity to weaken the base of his opposition made everyone in effect an employee of the state. Where as before the Egyptian peasant merely paid tax to a local noble at a certain rate of agricultural produce per season, he now owed substantially more of it to the central state because Muhammad Ali's tax policy also meant many communities paid ten to a hundred times more in taxes than before. He also demanding mass corvee levies on the regular of his people meant that a lot of work in the field went missing to go work on a canal project somewhere which regularly killed thousands, if not tens of thousands. As the article goes on, this proved to be even worse for the development of the peasants as a monied class because even the forced break up of the state monopoly meant that all those functions just went to a few hands within the Muhammad Ali expanded dynasty, and also a mass of displaced peasants that ran away or mangled themselves to avoid any conscription what's so ever.

Combined of course in this RP of there being a much wider Egypt, and cotton prices probably being at a low because there's no real major crisis affecting the market means in all likelihood the Egyptian state should not be doing good. And I say this in urging of you to consider sparking off some rebellions for the long term. Combined with the impulse of the Mercantilist State to always be expanding to seek out new places from which to extract more wealth for use by the state. But the use of that wealth for development will be of course hindered, because it needs to maintain an army in a state of permanent mobilization to police its extensive frontiers and wastelands. There will be no end in sight either, no doubt; because Muhammad and Ibrahim were both very invested in this state and even accelerated under Ibrahim.

Which is to say: there must be war with the Arabs and there must be war with the Libyans for tithes must be paid in wealth or slaves and there must be revolt in Egypt. These are my missions to you, and they must be developed and launched.

Compelled mostly to always be researching, I have come across some material that is relevant to you @Letter Bee and how you might be perceiving Egypt.

Legacy Of The Development Policy of Muhammad Ali

tl;dr - Muhammad Ali's centralization policies had a dire effect on the Egyptian economy. While it aided in the industrialization of the Egyptian economy it was predominately centered on a mono-culture of cotton only which devastated agriculture on the long term, as well as provided the basis for an unstable development cycle where the state rose and fell depending on the global market. Egypt did well when the cotton economy was at a high and supplies elsewhere were generally low, and The State could charge European merchants higher prices according to the whims of market forces; but did not bring in that much money.

Likewise as I have told you before; all lands in Egyptian being owned by The State and Muhammad Ali by decree, as well as the rates to tax collection and Islamic charity to weaken the base of his opposition made everyone in effect an employee of the state. Where as before the Egyptian peasant merely paid tax to a local noble at a certain rate of agricultural produce per season, he now owed substantially more of it to the central state because Muhammad Ali's tax policy also meant many communities paid ten to a hundred times more in taxes than before. He also demanding mass corvee levies on the regular of his people meant that a lot of work in the field went missing to go work on a canal project somewhere which regularly killed thousands, if not tens of thousands. As the article goes on, this proved to be even worse for the development of the peasants as a monied class because even the forced break up of the state monopoly meant that all those functions just went to a few hands within the Muhammad Ali expanded dynasty, and also a mass of displaced peasants that ran away or mangled themselves to avoid any conscription what's so ever.

Combined of course in this RP of there being a much wider Egypt, and cotton prices probably being at a low because there's no real major crisis affecting the market means in all likelihood the Egyptian state should not be doing good. And I say this in urging of you to consider sparking off some rebellions for the long term. Combined with the impulse of the Mercantilist State to always be expanding to seek out new places from which to extract more wealth for use by the state. But the use of that wealth for development will be of course hindered, because it needs to maintain an army in a state of permanent mobilization to police its extensive frontiers and wastelands. There will be no end in sight either, no doubt; because Muhammad and Ibrahim were both very invested in this state and even accelerated under Ibrahim.

Which is to say: there must be war with the Arabs and there must be war with the Libyans for tithes must be paid in wealth or slaves and there must be revolt in Egypt. These are my missions to you, and they must be developed and launched.

I like it! I am going to be without laptop access for a week in two days, though, so it might take some time for me to make a post.

Also, I knew some of this, but I failed to realize that it was that bad for the peasants plus that the world market was much worse in this RP...

I will not have laptop access for the day after tomorrow and the week after that.