*Sigh* I have suicidal thoughts everyday for the past decade or so. I guess that makes me a bad, selfish person.

Thinking about it is effectively beyond your control. Doing is not, and doing makes you selfish.

So Boerd said
Thinking about it is effectively beyond your control. Doing is not, and doing makes you selfish.

This is an uber-bad opinion.

Turtlicious said
This is an uber-bad opinion.

Should I expect evidence, an argument or even an explanation?

So Boerd said
Thinking about it is effectively beyond your control. Doing is not, and doing makes you selfish.

This is rare but I agree with Turt.

What's selfish is forcing people to stay alive who don't want to live just because you don't want to see them go.
For an example some people may relate to more.

Let's say you're in a relationship and your partner wants to end it but you don't.
So you basically go "But I don't want you to go! I'll be sad/hurt without you!". Is this behaviour/reaction understandable? Yes, you care for the person and don't wish to let them go. But by pressuring them to be somewhere they don't want to is what is being selfish.

Magic Magnum said
This is rare but I agree with Turt.What's selfish is forcing people to stay alive who don't want to live just because you don't want to see them go.For an example some people may relate to more.Let's say you're in a relationship and your partner wants to end it but you don't.So you basically go "But I don't want you to go! I'll be sad/hurt without you!". Is this behaviour/reaction understandable? Yes, you care for the person and don't wish to let them go. But by pressuring them to be somewhere they don't want to is what is being selfish.

The argument here can be used to justify anything.

So you are telling me that if a husband or wife is tired of the kids they can just take their share of the money, hop on a plane to Cancun and the other partner is selfish for wanting the kids to have their mother/father and the absentee parent is not? Give me a break.

So Boerd said
The argument here can be used to justify anything.So you are telling me that if a husband or wife is tired of the kids they can just take their share of the money, hop on a plane to Cancun and the other partner is selfish for wanting the kids to have their mother/father and the absentee parent is not? Give me a break.

Only if it's the woman.

On a more serious note; you make a couple jumps in your reasoning there, but divorce is a thing. You argue that parents should stay together for their children, even if they are unhappy together or are unable to fulfil their role as parents. I'd say things are a bit more complicated than that; but ultimately we'd be arguing a metaphor rather than the subject at hand. Which is silly.

I don't really know why I'm still posting here though.

The point is, you have got to balance the competing interests. I can guarantee that whatever pain a person feels, barring extraordinary physical pain, most often not the case, is less than the pain to their family and therein proves the selfishness. I cannot speak to their pain with certainty, but I can say this with certainty, people who write notes and make it obvious they killed themselves are causing more pain than they need to. It is wanton. Instead, they should make it look like an accident. That way, nobody has to wonder if they drove the individual to do it

Kestrel said
Only if it's the woman.

*tips fedora*

m'lady.

So Boerd said
The argument here can be used to justify anything.So you are telling me that if a husband or wife is tired of the kids they can just take their share of the money, hop on a plane to Cancun and the other partner is selfish for wanting the kids to have their mother/father and the absentee parent is not? Give me a break.

This is so stupid it actually hurts in my soul.

In my eyes, it's a person's right to do whatever the hell they want with their own body. Living solely for the sake of not hurting others is pretty much condemning yourself to a mental prison.

Listen, I don't think you should jump off a roof because your parents didn't get you the phone you wanted for your birthday. I don't think people should give up at the first slight hitch in the road. If you're unhappy you should fight to solve that problem, be it getting a find a person to talk to, taking martial arts training or submitting yourself to a clinic. However, if after substantial amounts of time and effort have been put in, a person has not been able to recover the will to live nor will in the foreseeable future, at the end of the day it's their decision what to do with their life and body and especially as family you should be able to respect that.

So Boerd said
Instead, they should make it look like an accident. That way, nobody has to wonder if they drove the individual to do it

If a person is depressed and gets hit by a car, you're leaving the family with an unanswered question. They'll always wonder whether it was an accident or they threw their selves in front of the car. Closure, in many cases, comes with understanding. I agree you shouldn't write an "Screw this world I hate you all!" letter, but at least be honest about your decision and treat your loved ones like rational adults.

Turtlicious said
*tips fedora*m'lady.

You know, you were actually one of the last people I expected to get that one.

So basically suicide is wrong because one person's suffering is immaterial compared to those around him? Point taken.

But anyway, suicide is often the result of a well thought out decision. What lead to that decision? Simple. You put that guy in a God damn box for a few decades and keep prodding and poking and kicking and screaming at him until he breaks. That's how he made the decision to opt out of life and get out of that box. It's usually not because of one thing that lead to suicide, it all builds up.

In other words, you people treat the victim like crap and expects them not to opt out, then condemn them when they did. What the hell? It's like a lifetime of mental torture that is demented, especially considering that the surest way out is barred as well.

In other words, to nip this problem.in the bud, start treating people right, and giving them their right over their own life is one of them.

Magic Magnum said
This is rare but I agree with Turt.What's selfish is forcing people to stay alive who don't want to live just because you don't want to see them go.For an example some people may relate to more.Let's say you're in a relationship and your partner wants to end it but you don't.So you basically go "But I don't want you to go! I'll be sad/hurt without you!". Is this behaviour/reaction understandable? Yes, you care for the person and don't wish to let them go. But by pressuring them to be somewhere they don't want to is what is being selfish.

I like this example.

When it comes to parent's and children the parent has a responsibility to raise their children.
It's part of the agreement they signed up to when they had a child and chose not to abort or put the child up for adoption.
Also in your example it's not personal selfishness the other parents shows, it's care and concern for a child's well being.

But even in this case though, if the parent is happier leaving the children then let the parent leave.
Studies have shown that children develop worse when parents are together out of a sense of necessity rather than having separated parents.
Plus even without those studies it's fair to argue that a parent with no desire to be with their kids is probably one shitty parent, hell there are tons of parents who do want to be with their kids who are god awful at parenting.

Kestrel said You know, you were actually one of the last people I expected to get that one.

Well, I wasn't sure if you were putting that as your own opinion, or making fun of MRA's, so I used a joke that would insult MRA's because Fuck Men's Rights Activists.

I will respond to the points raised in more detail when I have the time and inclination, but as far as I can tell, nobody contests suicide is only ever chosen based on personal concerns without regard to others, yes? That is selfish by definition, so we can settle that element of the discussion.

Well, based on the findings of a mathematician some odd years ago(Can't remember his name, unfortunately), there is no such thing as being selfless. So selfishness may not be as inherently negative as people say it is. Of course, that all depends on whether you accept the theory of evolution, which is what the man's research was based on.

Selflessness is considering your own interests as less than others, not ignoring your own.

I have to admit I've only read the first five pages, but it's gone 2am and I'll just have to catch up on the rest in the morning. I apologise if the brief point I'm about to make has been addressed in the last two pages.

Most of what I wanted to say has already been covered - primarily by Jorick - but this is addressed to those who believe suicide is not simply flat-out wrong.
What I find curious is that almost every single post here seems to only consider diagnosed mental illness in relation to suicide. There's a line being drawn between clinical depression and any other type of grief, sadness, or trauma - and one side of the line is acceptable cause for suicide, and one is not. Apparently one can only reasonably commit suicide if they've been raped, or have suffered terrible abuse, or have a mental condition diagnosed from their doctor.
Depression is not simply "long term sadness". It has a specific set of symptoms and effects - specific characteristics; a syndrome. Without those, you aren't clinically depressed. That does not, however, mean you haven't been soul-crushingly miserable for a very long time. Abject misery and clinical depression aren't at all the same, but they can both be devastating to someone's will to live, regardless of the fact that one fits into a convenient categorisation of symptoms and can therefore be an official "condition", and one cannot be pinned down with a set of specific characteristics/symptoms.
Someone can be not technically depressed - not exhibiting those specific symptoms - while being just as unhealthy and unhappy in mind, to the point that it can drive them over the edge. Does the fact that their symptoms, the causes of their misery, do not fit any set of symptoms common enough to be a recognised condition, mean they are more selfish than those with diagnosed depression for committing suicide?

The other point I've just thought of is this: for those of you condemning anybody who just "does it for attention", or who tries to make others feel guilty in their notes, or whatever... do you not think that being desperately insecure enough to need that attention, or bitter and angry and hurt enough to lash out at the world in that way, in itself signifies that something is deeply wrong and that the person needs help?
It is very similar to an argument I see frequently: that self-harmers who don't hide their fresh cuts or old scars, or who post them on Facebook, are "only doing it for attention", don't really have any issues, or whatever. What seems ridiculous about this is that the people making the argument don't seem to realise that such a need for attention and pity is, in itself, demonstrating that that person is deeply in need of support and help. Anybody who really was cutting themselves for attention is clearly just as pathological and needing of support as someone doing it for reasons considered more "legitimate". Exactly the same thing applies here, to the case of suicide.

I'll maybe edit this to read better in the morning; apologies if it's a little poorly phrased or thought out.

So Boerd said
I will respond to the points raised in more detail when I have the time and inclination, but as far as I can tell, nobody contests suicide is only ever chosen based on personal concerns without regard to others, yes? That is selfish by definition, so we can settle that element of the discussion.

Buying a hamburger instead of donating the extra money to those who need it more than you is selfish also. A lot of things people do is selfish. I'd go as far as claiming selfishness is a pillar of both survival and happiness. Maybe not the one burger, though.

So I'm not really sure what you're trying to convey.

Halo said do you not think that being desperately insecure enough to need that attention, or bitter and angry and hurt enough to lash out at the world in that way, in itself signifies that something is deeply wrong and that the person needs help?It is very similar to an argument I see frequently: that self-harmers who don't hide their fresh cuts or old scars, or who post them on Facebook, are "only doing it for attention", don't really have any issues, or whatever. What seems ridiculous about this is that the people making the argument don't seem to realise that such a need for attention and pity is, in itself, demonstrating that that person is deeply in need of support and help. Anybody who really was cutting themselves for attention is clearly just as pathological and needing of support as someone doing it for reasons considered more "legitimate". Exactly the same thing applies here, to the case of suicide.

Good point... That honestly never even crossed my mind. :/

Well done.