[quote=So Boerd] But so what? Accepting the premise that being an "attack" somehow alters the situation, what does it matter? The hypothetical mother is still knowingly inflicting more pain. I do not give a damn what your intentions are, I care about the consequences. There is simply no comparison in the level of damage suicidal mother causes vs dumb bigot. [/quote] I'll bring back an example I used rather recently. You're in a relationship and the person you're with wants to end it. You love and care for the person, and you don't want to see them go. That's a completely understandable and normal human emotion/reaction to have. However, to then use that as a reason to go "Please don't go!" and keep them somewhere they don't want to be would be selfish. The leaving you is painful to you, and it will no doubt hurt you when they leave. But it's their choice be in the relationship and you are in turn hurting them by keeping them where they don't want to be (and note I say this having once been the selfish prick who did this in a relationship). Just change the wording here to be on suicide, yes it will hurt to see the person kill themselves. But it's their choice to their own body and life, and you are in turn hurting them by telling them that they can't.