[OOC] The Fall of Jerusalem

[Marduk]

I can't find any notion (at least without spending a whole lot of time digging) about what "high languages" are outside of computer code. So I must ask - can you clarify?
By high language do you mean that only the upper classes speak it?

It appears that Dhimmitude is the practice of making non-muslims second-class citizens?

[Jinxer]

A High Language is essentially an Upper Class or elitist language; it's seen as the language of preferment and no knowledge in it would result in very limited career hopes, as it were (the opposite being a Low Language).

That's correct. In exchange for protection, a poll tax and some restrictions (search for the Pact of Umar for a few examples although not that many were actually enforced) the non-Muslims were given religious freedom and were supposedly free of persecution but this was a theory and not always practiced/enforced. This obviously only applied to permanent settlers; Pilgrims and other visitors were generally left alone because they brought money to the economy and attacking them would damage that revenue. Also believe it or not Christian monks and priests were highly respected by the Muslims and were generally left alone (during Crusades and times of warfare this changed for the worse though).

[Marduk]

I found this!
Dhimmitude.org

And the Pact of Umar:

ARTICLES OF THE PACT OF UMAR
We Christians:
1 - We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries,
2 - churches,
3 - convents,
4 - or monks' cells,
5 - nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins
6 - or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims. . . .
7- We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy,
8 - nor hide him from the Muslims. We shall not teach the Quran to our children.
9 - We shall not manifest our religion publicly
10 - nor convert anyone to it.
11 - We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.
12 - We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and
13 - we shall rise from our seats if they wish to sit.
14 - We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the headgear, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair.
15 - We shall not speak as they do,
16 - nor shall we adopt their honorific names.
17 - We shall not mount on saddles,
18- nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our persons.
19 - We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.
20 - We shall not sell fermented drinks. . . .
21 - We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims.
22 - We shall only use clappers in our churches very softly.
23 - We shall not raise our voices in our church services or in the presence of Muslims,
24 - nor shall we raise our voices when following our dead.
25 - We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets.
26 - We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.
27 - We shall not take slave who have been allotted to the Muslims.
28 - We shall not build houses over-topping the houses of the Muslims. . . .
(When I brought the letter to Umar, he added, "And we shall not strike a Muslim. We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.

Hrm. Fair enough. It would have been selectively enforced, you say? I can believe that; many laws are. Though I'm sure it would still impact the day-to-day interactions of muslims with the dhimma.

Back to the topic at hand: Shall we settle on a universal language? It's not implausible for either of the Western characters to know Latin - each is a devout Christian. I can justify it for Marduk - although he has no formal education, his master is well-educated and most likely uses Latin from time to time. He may have picked up enough to speak it.
I'm really not sure about Mordecai. But I've seen worse transgressions for the sake of facilitating an RP. xD.

[Marduk]

Oooohhhh. So that's why Arabic hasn't permeated all levels of the culture after 500 years. The dhimma aren't allowed to speak it?

[Jinxer]

Indeed. Only converts were allowed to speak Arabic openly (and even then there were restrictions on the recently converted) so the spread of the language was very slow. Again, the Pact of Umar is an example of Dhimmitude and its origins are... contentious to say the least.

Latin would be the most logical choice, I think. It's no coincidence that the Holy Orders all spoke Latin as their main form of communication due to their universal nature of recruitment.

[Marduk]

Latin it is, then.

What about Eastern Christendom? Would they have spoken Latin as well? (That is, would Mordecai have been exposed to it through the church, or will he need another reason to know Latin?).

[Iluvatar]

Let's just say he went on a pilgrimage to Rome in his youth to see where the apostle Paul died :D

[Marduk]

That could work :3

[Marduk]

I will definitely find a way to post tonight, if only because I can't justify holding up a freshly started RP for two straight days, but it won't be for a few hours. Tests, prep for more tests. Eugh.

[Marduk]

It will also, obviously, be super late when I get that post up.

9 hours later, I'm still writing that essay. ._.

[Marduk]

Okay, maybe not. I've finally finished that essay and it's 3am. I can't justify staying up another hour to post (I have a quiz tomorrow in algebra), and I wouldn't be able to put out anything of quality if I did. I promise I'll have a post up by 5:30pm EST tomorrow. That's using the 3 hours I have between classes.

It won't be like this every week. This is just a very busy one. ><;

[Iluvatar]

Okay then :D Mordecai went to Rome.

I understand how you feel about essays D:they suck. By the way, what country do you live in? Because I don't know what EST stands for. I am in GMT, Greenwich Mean Time, because I'm British!

God save the Queen!

Now everyone wonders why my character's not British...

[Marduk]

I live in the USA. Florida, to be exact! For a time reference, it's 12:04 PM at the time of posting.

Also, I'm pretty sure Britain wasn't a thing until like 1700. It would be extraordinarily hard to be British!
Although I guess we do have one saxon fellow in Hayate.

By the way, Jinx? Pearion and I were discussing Hayate's background - you said that people from his area would speak "either saxon or norman French". Where would you estimate the line to be drawn between classes? Would saxon be limited to peasantry? Or would French be limited to the upper nobility? Would they meet somewhere in the middle? And where would a knight of Hayate's nature fall into the pecking order, historically speaking?
-That is, if you're familiar with the area. :o.

[Jinxer]

The Battle of Hastings and the crowning of William the Conqueror was in 1066 and it was then that an aristocracy that was Norman wad established.

In other words it depends on whether Hayate is one of the original companions of the Conqueror or one of their children or whether he is a Saxon knight who escaped the purge. At this point the Saxon nobles won't have acclimated to the new French court.

Also Britain was founded in 1800s when they formally unified with Scotland into one nation. And Rhiannon is Welsh which is British... now anyways (I live in Wales but am English).

[Iluvatar]

Oh, okay then :D. I though Wales was invaded before Scotland (yes, I know they all were at some point...)

And Hayate is Saxon? I thought the Crusades were during Norman times? Or are you referring to him as a conquered Saxon?

[Jinxer]

Sorry, I should clarify.

The First Crusade reached Jerusalem in 1099 (well, the siege was then) whereas the Norman Conquest was only in 1066 - there's a very small gap between the two so there's very much an aristocracy of Normans and a serfdom of Anglo-Saxons - if someone from England was a noble of any kind they'd almost certainly be Norman (and therefore would speak French, not 'English').

Also Wales was invaded (and conquered) in 1282 and then absorbed into England in 1536 - Wales and England actually existed as 'England' with Wales being divided into shires and treated the same as those in England so technically Wales never existed until 1955 (scary, right?)

[Iluvatar]

Wow. That was both enlightening, and confusing. Thanks!... I think?

[Pearion_Rehtyer]

He would most likely be Norman in that case as his grandfather would have needed to be able to carry out research for a few years, meaning his family would need to be able to be there for about 20 years or so. Also the life expectancy being less in those days would make it likely that was the case anyways. By the way, thanks for all the help Jinx!

[Jinxer]

No worries - I'm here for all questions!

History is like that Iluvatar - that's what makes it so fun ^_^

[Iluvatar]

I know. I took History GCSE (I don't know what your education system is in your country, so there might be an equivalent. I don't even know where you're from!) and I'm really enjoying it. We're doing the inter-war years, World War Two and recovery in Britain (mainly England and Wales) and Germany, and the Civil Right movement in the USA. Only negative thing about it is that I prefer military history to civil history, which is what we're doing D: