Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[Andreyich]

ebig bantc

[Vilageidiotx]

I think we'll find even more efficient ways to use those fuels. We've already made it much cheaper through fracking.

The EPA admits it has no proof it does anything, and the drinking water part they now claim, has been debunked.

But I'll be an optimist, and say I'd love to see alternative energy make progress because there's nothing wrong with competition. They just need to stop being subsidized, $74 billion in federal subsidies, or 25 times how many fossil fuels are getting. (and shouldn't be getting either for the record.)

And if the product was cheap and effective, and was actually a viable source. That's made a lot of progress in you're own words, It should be able to profit without so much effort.

And not be this much of a futile effort.

@SleepingSilence

Science doesn't happen over night. The idea that we should cease funding improvements to our society if those improvements are not yet competitive on the market is very short sighted. That we haven't reached the point where clean energy is competitive doesn't mean that it is impossible that it will ever happen. Until then, the Market itself has no reason to favor funding for experimentation, so development in a fundamentalist Market economy would necessarily be way slower.

I honestly wouldn't defend that, but even if you believe so. Him not going after Clinton was his own undoing. Him supporting her after the fact, certainly completely went against his own message.

Again, he was a policy dude, so the idea he wouldn't sacrifice medicaid and the like to purge a bit of bile isn't that surprising.

Trump won because he would call terrorism, terrorism. He didn't call half of america, deplorable people. He won because he didn't demonize an entire race and gender for being evil and the cause of all the worlds problems. If we're going to talk about bitter venom losing an election, that's on the progressive left side. That you can thank for that.

Sounds like you're in love =p

Let's not go waaay out there and pretend Trump smashed this thing. The "Leftists are all ebil monsters and everyone knows it and thats why everyone everywhere loves Trump" narrative is a surefire way to land your own philosophy in the same type of unreality as that of the small cadre of SJW type space cadets you assume to be everybody left of center. The bitterness after the election was going to happen one way or another.

I can't respect Bernie in the slightest, for someone who basically said "White people can't be poor and don't understand what it's like being in a ghetto" in fact, I've said it before, I'll say it again. He can go f himself.

I disagreed with that particular statement, but since the rest of his campaign didn't bear the anti-white thing out, and because the other candidates were by far worse, Bernie is the least f-himself-able candidate in the running. It would be too bad if we as a culture sanctify Trump and demonize Sanders.

He's a six figure socialist, so that's a touch ironic. And a millionaire. Change only starts with yourself, why not redistribute his own wealth? Because when people want to steal money because "poor" well there's always someone worse off than you...why aren't you doing anything about it? It's because it's not for helping, it's being envious your neighbor has a bigger house.

And if Donald was poor, but got the funding from somewhere else and he was still as known as he was. It wouldn't of changed a thing...But yes, it's difficult for "anyone" to become president in that sense. But I mean, it's not hard to understand why that's the case..

So Bernie Sanders is a socialist because he is envious that other people having three bigger houses than him? Wat? The guy doesn't make enough money to personally fund public healthcare on his own, so his income isn't really pertinent to his policy positions. You'd have to think I'm an Arch-Marxist who actually thinks everyone should make the same income for that argument to have an effect, because otherwise it's nonsensical. I mean, shit, I personally know people who make six figures. That's not mega-elite status exactly.

Also, if Trump got the funding from elsewhere, which he would need more of to cover expenses that pre-existing wealth covered in this timeline, then he would probably land even closer to Dem spending then he already did.

IQ and race

goddamit. IQ tests are imperfect measures of intelligence. I mean, just look at the questions and imagine a person with a poor education trying to work them out. This doesn't reflect on their latent abilities, and therefore doesn't reflect on natural intelligence.

When I was in school I considered going into IO psych, which among other things focuses on IQ tests and Myers-Briggs tests and what not. The reason I considered it is because they straight up tell you in school that those tests are complete useless bullshit, but they make you shit loads of money because businesses and the government eat up any sort of test that simplifies complex ideas into something easy enough for HR to understand. So it was basically "There are a lot of jobs here and you can do well in this field if you can bullshit well."

Personally, I don't think intelligence is something that is easily measurable, and I'm not sure it will ever be something that you can measure on a number scale. There is just too much going on, too many factors in abstract and spacial thinking working at once to make a single genetic factor that is intelligence.

[mdk]

Let's not go waaay out there and pretend Trump smashed this thing. The "Leftists are all ebil monsters and everyone knows it and thats why everyone everywhere loves Trump" narrative is a surefire way to land your own philosophy in the same type of unreality as that of the small cadre of SJW type space cadets you assume to be everybody left of center. The bitterness after the election was going to happen one way or another.

@Vilageidiotx

"Bitterness" is being pretty lenient with the language. From where I'm sitting it looks like unbridled hatred, with some cry-bullying and hoaxing and just a dash of attempted mass-assassination. This was not "always going to happen," and we shouldn't be writing it off or explaining it away. I mean we've BEEN doing that, for a while, but..... idunno. I'm sick of pretending this is how shit is supposed to be. Once you start looking for reasons why the hatred keeps spreading -- well, you start to form some opinions about the leftists in the media.

[Penny]

@mdk

It certainly seems like people are living in some weird mirror universes. One side sees Trump as an utterly incompetent embarrassment, the other as a messianic figure that can do no wrong.

It is fallacious to say that the truth is somewhere in the middle, but there is SO LITTLE commonality of opinion on the matter.

I also think people on the left are falling into a sort of Hitler trap, where they heap all this crap on Trump as this aberration in what looks to be an attempt to avoid admitting the fact that literally millions of their fellow citizens though voting for him was a good idea.

Trump is just one guy, he is a symptom of a wider cultural phenomenon. I'm actually more concerned about what happens 8 years from now when a slightly more polished version of Trump who learned the demagogic lessons of 2016 takes the stage.

[SleepingSilence]

Science doesn't happen over night. The idea that we should cease funding improvements to our society if those improvements are not yet competitive on the market is very short sighted. That we haven't reached the point where clean energy is competitive doesn't mean that it is impossible that it will ever happen. Until then, the Market itself has no reason to favor funding for experimentation, so development in a fundamentalist Market economy would necessarily be way slower.

@Vilageidiotx

This point boils down to, Subsides aren't good for the consumer or even the businesses themselves. That's the biggest problem.

And the market doesn't reward new interesting products and experimentation? Seriously? Kickstarter debunks the very idea that's a thing. (among other things.) People will pay and invest in good, useful products and interesting ideas. We are talking about otherwise, less useful and more expensive things that only exist because the rich are guilt tripping the rest of us that we're "polluting the planet" while living the most lavish lifestyles possible. Tell third world countries we're about to make your energy much more expensive and see how happy they are at the concept.

Again, he was a policy dude, so the idea he wouldn't sacrifice medicaid and the like to purge a bit of bile isn't that surprising.

@Vilageidiotx

I disagree that he even had a clue what he was talking about...a policy dude, who couldn't get his head on straight of what businesses he was going after.

Sounds like you're in love =p

Let's not go waaay out there and pretend Trump smashed this thing. The "Leftists are all ebil monsters and everyone knows it and thats why everyone everywhere loves Trump" narrative is a surefire way to land your own philosophy in the same type of unreality as that of the small cadre of SJW type space cadets you assume to be everybody left of center. The bitterness after the election was going to happen one way or another.

@Vilageidiotx

Like I already said, I compared Trump to Sony during the convention. All he did was what you'd think a common damn human being would expect, but the left fell so far into their own propaganda and double down constantly. Trump didn't have to do anything and he got himself elected. He was not my first pick to put it mildly.

I'm not saying that either, but certainly far more on the left acting nuts, destroying property and embarrassing themselves. They didn't even go after republicans for being "Ebil", it wasn't the "Ebil" ones who write your check/pays for the government check. 1% percent. It wasn't even the vague "rich people" who were the evil ones, that worked in every other election cycle. No, they had to go a step farther. It was every single white cis man on the face of the earth that was the problem this time. AND everyone who disagreed with them even slightly. I don't even know how she managed to get more votes from how many people that excludes...(ya know aside from the dead and ones who can't vote legally and all. *this isn't serious I swear if this is used as a quote, I'm buying bleach.*)

Bitterness after the election is a big understatement...it was embarrassing, and ridiculous and it literally is still going on to this day people whining about the election being "hacked".

I disagreed with that particular statement, but since the rest of his campaign didn't bear the anti-white thing out, and because the other candidates were by far worse, Bernie is the least f-himself-able candidate in the running. It would be too bad if we as a culture sanctify Trump and demonize Sanders.

@Vilageidiotx

He said, many more things that showed what kind of person he was. But I'm not pretending either candidate is a saint here. When you have three or more marriages, your probably kind of a fuck up, in at least one way...And Obama being treated like the second coming of Christ, and the chunk of Trump's fan base and this whole fucking worship of a political figure thing, creeps me the fuck out and shows just how goddamn cult-like politics actually is...(or can be at least.)

But yes, I will demonize Sanders because his actual ideas would fundamentally screw America. But that's my opinion I guess, and the history of socialism...

So Bernie Sanders is a socialist because he is envious that other people having three bigger houses than him? Wat? The guy doesn't make enough money to personally fund public healthcare on his own, so his income isn't really pertinent to his policy positions. You'd have to think I'm an Arch-Marxist who actually thinks everyone should make the same income for that argument to have an effect, because otherwise it's nonsensical. I mean, shit, I personally know people who make six figures. That's not mega-elite status exactly.

Also, if Trump got the funding from elsewhere, which he would need more of to cover expenses that pre-existing wealth covered in this timeline, then he would probably land even closer to Dem spending then he already did.

@Vilageidiotx

Missing the forest from the trees on that one, my point is he is a hypocrite. And most rich socialists messages are completely hollow and most of that mentality comes from greed. The rich businesses didn't get rich, by hurting poor people. They made money through a transaction benefiting both parties. The idea that you can make too much money, is ridiculous to me. Clearly not everyone, but again, if they were put in those shoes they wouldn't do it either. Or like people that win the lottery, they won't know how to handle it in the slightest, fuck their lives up and go broke. Proving that money doesn't solve always your problems.

I don't really see the logic there, but it's just conjecture at this point. So I'll say maybe, we'll never know?

goddamit. IQ tests are imperfect measures of intelligence.

@Vilageidiotx

It's confusing that you post this without mentioning anyone else. Because it seems to imply, that I disagree with that notion. So preaching to the choir, fellow canine avatar.

[POOHEAD189]

@mdk

It certainly seems like people are living in some weird mirror universes. One side sees Trump as an utterly incompetent embarrassment, the other as a messianic figure that can do no wrong.

It is fallacious to say that the truth is somewhere in the middle, but there is SO LITTLE commonality of opinion on the matter.

I also think people on the left are falling into a sort of Hitler trap, where they heap all this crap on Trump as this aberration in what looks to be an attempt to avoid admitting the fact that literally millions of their fellow citizens though voting for him was a good idea.

Trump is just one guy, he is a symptom of a wider cultural phenomenon. I'm actually more concerned about what happens 8 years from now when a slightly more polished version of Trump who learned the demagogic lessons of 2016 takes the stage.

@Penny

I do think it's quite irrational to think Trump is the anti-christ, or as you say, an allusion to Hitler. He's more of a corrupt fool, which granted, is common in Washington. I think him being blatantly arrogant with no experience, is the kicker.

[SleepingSilence]

It certainly seems like people are living in some weird mirror universes. One side sees Trump as an utterly incompetent embarrassment, the other as a messianic figure that can do no wrong.

It is fallacious to say that the truth is somewhere in the middle, but there is SO LITTLE commonality of opinion on the matter.

@Penny

Those statements seem contradictory to me...

While I oddly also sort of agree with both, depending on exactly what you are talking about...

I think outright calling him incompetent would be the wrong word to use, since he's (was) currently running successful company. And he managed to become president without spending 100 times as much as his opponent...at the same time, people pretending he's perfect is goddamn embarrassing and it's creepy that people get cult like in real life, to celebrities, athletes, presidents. It really does sort of make a "everyone worships something" statement kind of accurate...While he's resume is a touch more impressive than handing out flyers. He also clearly doesn't lack an ego and he clearly doesn't have a filter. (and yeah, the leader of our country should probably be acting just a sh*tload bit more professional.)

As for the "there is no middle ground answer" thing. I do think it's wrong that there is a lot of grey area for most things and that the world for a lot of things isn't merely black and white. So I disagree that there isn't an answer somewhere in the middle for certain things. (Not all by a long shot.)

But I also don't think a lot of self proclaimed "centrists" aren't being particularly honest, often hypocritical, or that they aren't extremely interested/knowledgeable in politics. But that's just a personal thing from experience of talking to most people like that.

And people comparing Trump to Hitler are just dumb. There's one of the examples, where the answer isn't in the middle. It's just hyperbole. :P

@POOHEAD189 Has a lot more than the last one did. xP I won't go out of my way to say he's "qualified" But he's clearly not that dumb. It's sort of like people attacking Bush for being a C student. In fucking Yale. (and his opponent had a C- to add to the irony.) Running a business is experience in a very small scale, but not every idiot can run one for as long as he has.

[POOHEAD189]

I think outright calling him incompetent would be the wrong word to use, since he's (was) currently running successful company.

He's been bankrupt 3 times, and he bankrupted a Casino, which is quite a feat to say the least.

I didn't touch on your other points because I agree with them, mostly. @Penny is very correct though. Not all correct answers are in the middle, but its quite concerning how no one can seem to agree. Or, no one with any kind of voice.

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by Penny>
@POOHEAD189 Has a lot more than the last one did. xP I won't go out of my way to say he's "qualified" But he's clearly not that dumb. It's sort of like people attacking Bush for being a C student. In fucking Yale. (and his opponent had a C- to add to the irony.) Running a business is experience in a very small scale, but not every idiot can run one for as long as he has.

@SleepingSilence

I am a big Bush apologist. He's actually quite intelligent, especially in geopolitics. A lot of shit that wasn't his fault happened during his presidency. 9/11, Katrina, Housing Market Crash, etc.
It's not the same thing as Trump, who is nothing more than a TV personality, and he has run a few of them, only running them into the ground isn't the same thing as running them.

[mdk]

<Snipped quote>He's been bankrupt 3 times, and he bankrupted a Casino, which is quite a feat to say the least.

@POOHEAD189

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

@mdk

I hope you are not serious. It doesn't take a lot of thought to see how that's not the same thing.
Also, even if that info was relevant, which it isn't. If you use memes, might wanna source them.

[mdk]

<Snipped quote by mdk>
I hope you are not serious. It doesn't take a lot of thought to see how that's not the same thing.

@POOHEAD189

One key difference is that only one of them has anything to show for their efforts.

[Vilageidiotx]

<Snipped quote by Vilageidiotx>

"Bitterness" is being pretty lenient with the language. From where I'm sitting it looks like unbridled hatred, with some cry-bullying and hoaxing and just a dash of attempted mass-assassination. This was not "always going to happen," and we shouldn't be writing it off or explaining it away. I mean we've BEEN doing that, for a while, but..... idunno. I'm sick of pretending this is how shit is supposed to be. Once you start looking for reasons why the hatred keeps spreading -- well, you start to form some opinions about the leftists in the media.

@mdk

That Trump won meant that his supporters had no reason to break out, but lets not forget that people were calling for revolution if Hillary won, or that the man himself spent the last couple of weeks of the election doing this creepy "They are going to steal the election from me" thing and suggested he wouldn't concede the election if he lost.

I don't particularly like political division either, but this attitude of "The left did it all! The right has never ever stirred the pot" adds to the problem. It takes two to tango, lets not get drunk on this idea that only the left is capable of histrionics.

This point boils down to, Subsides aren't good for the consumer or even the businesses themselves. That's the biggest problem.

And the market doesn't reward new interesting products and experimentation? Seriously? Kickstarter debunks the very idea that's a thing. (among other things.) People will pay and invest in good, useful products and interesting ideas. We are talking about otherwise, less useful and more expensive things that only exist because the rich are guilt tripping the rest of us that we're "polluting the planet" while living the most lavish lifestyles possible. Tell third world countries we're about to make your energy much more expensive and see how happy they are at the concept.

Kickstarter is like shark tank, it rewards immediate marketable innovation and potato salad. Kickstarter isn't nearly complex enough to handle something the size of a green energy on the same scale that interventionism can.

I'm not saying that either, but certainly far more on the left acting nuts, destroying property and embarrassing themselves. They didn't even go after republicans for being "Ebil", it wasn't the "Ebil" ones who write your check/pays for the government check. 1% percent. It wasn't even the vague "rich people" who were the evil ones, that worked in every other election cycle. No, they had to go a step farther. It was every single white cis man on the face of the earth that was the problem this time. AND everyone who disagreed with them even slightly. I don't even know how she managed to get more votes from how many people that excludes...(ya know aside from the dead and ones who can't vote legally and all. *this isn't serious I swear if this is used as a quote, I'm buying bleach.*)

Has Hillary Clinton ever used the word "Cis"? Let's not get tumblr and mainstream politics confused. I mean, I'm a white dude and I've never felt personally threatened by the Dems. Though I suppose that'd make me a Cuck in proper conservative parlance.

But yes, I will demonize Sanders because his actual ideas would fundamentally screw America. But that's my opinion I guess, and the history of socialism...

aw lawd

Missing the forest from the trees on that one, my point is he is a hypocrite. And most rich socialists messages are completely hollow and most of that mentality comes from greed. The rich businesses didn't get rich, by hurting poor people. They made money through a transaction benefiting both parties. The idea that you can make too much money, is ridiculous to me. Clearly not everyone, but again, if they were put in those shoes they wouldn't do it either. Or like people that win the lottery, they won't know how to handle it in the slightest, fuck their lives up and go broke. Proving that money doesn't solve always your problems.

I don't really see the logic there, but it's just conjecture at this point. So I'll say maybe, we'll never know?

It has happened historically and can happen again. A person can become too rich in that wealth disparity can come to symbolize failing returns for labor. It isn't an accident that the neo-liberal period of economic history coincides with the wage stagnation period.

It's confusing that you post this without mentioning anyone else. Because it seems to imply, that I disagree with that notion. So preaching to the choir, fellow canine avatar.

Yeh, I was siding with you on this. I just don't like spending a shit load of time on organizing the quotes, so going and hunting down the Estonian kid's name and then copy/pasting it was more work than I wanted to put in.

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

One key difference is that only one of them has anything to show for their efforts.

@mdk

The difference is one spent their money on a campaign, and the other just couldn't handle a business multiple times over.

[mdk]

<Snipped quote by mdk>

The difference is one spent their money on a campaign, and the other just couldn't handle a business multiple times over.

@POOHEAD189

Why don't we ask Haiti how it feels about the Clinton Foundation's handling of money?

Also: she's lost more than one presidential campaign.

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Why don't we ask Haiti how it feels about the Clinton Foundation's handling of money?

Also: she's lost more than one presidential campaign.

@mdk

1) I don't know why you're bringing up Hillary Clinton's failures when all I've done is go against Trump. I'm not a liberal, not a democrat, nor am I a Hillary Clinton fan.
2) The handling of money in one incident does not make a charitable organization, one where the Clintons are no longer board members on, a failure.
3) Yes, she's run before. Still not a reflection of her business skills.

[mdk]

<Snipped quote by mdk>
1) I don't know why you're bringing up Hillary Clinton's failures when all I've done is go against Trump. I'm not a liberal, not a democrat, nor am I a Hillary Clinton fan.

@POOHEAD189

Eh, fair enough. My point was that a couple chapter 11s in the past are, like, nothing. You should see some of the bullshit DC people get away with.

[SleepingSilence]

@Andreyich *sigh*

They want to though.

@Andreyich

That's a stupid rebuttal. I'm sure doctors, lawyers and teachers want to feed their families too. Do we not pay them?

Or you know, just a little greed.

@Andreyich

Again, non-statement. No, it's not greedy...If others -want- to pay you. You sound very much like someone demonizing a company for making money, right now and you didn't have that opinion before.

True, but a lot of sub-par ones were made too. I also don't know how the fuck we got on the subject of a free market but w/e.

@Andreyich

Because you don't seem to understand, that people should get paid for work. And you're not old enough to be stupid enough to think, the new media and less shitty jobs aren't worth being compensated...

Again there's a lot of sub-par workers in general, they get paid too. :/ Whatever you're arguing, and at this point I'm not even sure what it is...it's wrong.

By very little, and yes it does.

@Andreyich

+12-17 points difference on average is not -very- little...

There's a billion things to modify the scores, but not significantly. Anyway most know variables i.e. this are accounted for.

@Andreyich

+12-17 points difference on average (Again, clearly not the case...) The point remains that it doesn't even measure overall intelligence well at all...

And it doesn't account that it can be changed and improved upon, how would that be the case if only linked to genes?

Yes but the point is that these tests are designed to consider intelligence no matter the environment, merely your true 'peak' intelligence.

Maybe that isn't good in America which has a lot of """diversity""" but having such a mindset in Europe is quite handy, since this helps preserve institutions that are uniquely European. I sure as hell would love it for my country to finally kick out all the Chinese flooding in.

@Andreyich

I suppose that last statement kind of just goes past anything, but spiteful racism...

But no, it CAN'T do that. It DOESN'T show your peak...I just said, you can improve your scores...

Studies have found significant increase in IQ from one generation to the other. It increases 21 points on an average in 30 years. Such an increase can result only from the surrounding environment. Hence, it is proved that IQ does change based on the environment.

You're trying to tell me, that race mixing hasn't been a thing? I'm sorry to jump in the accusatory statements, but I think you're flat out being intellectually dishonest here...

In the 1970s, one percent of all American children were of mixed race. Now, 10 percent are. The U.S. Census Bureau predicts that, by 2060, the number of multiracial Americans will be three times larger than it is now.

America may have double of it in percent population compared to Europe, (ya know because racism.) But it's growing everywhere.

And again, I point out even if there's some or any truth to the statements made, as a human being living in a productive society. It shouldn't matter. You think it does. Which is our fundamental disagreement.
You may not see America being diverse, being a good thing. But I certainly do. I love the melting pot concept. And I wouldn't live anywhere else.

And Europe is doing really nicely. Oh wait.

telegraph.co.uk/news/0/european-debt-…

thefederalist.com/2017/03/01/yes-viol…

marketwatch.com/story/europe-is-faili…

[SleepingSilence]

@POOHEAD189 Plenty of casino's go under, so not really. Actually that sort of shows something, because many people don't survive and continue after the first one. But I won't go too far into it either, because I'm not really wanting to defend him that badly either.

I'll admit Bush wasn't the biggest problem during his presidency run. But the people surrounding him were a bunch of knuckle-draggers. People like Karl Rove, made his presidency what it was.

And I agreed with that sentiment too. But I do think there's more that people could unite on, that politics current game is to be as unbearable and toxic as possible. Making middle ground only seem more impossible, but even attempting to be civil would be a nice change.

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

Eh, fair enough. My point was that a couple chapter 11s in the past are, like, nothing. You should see some of the bullshit DC people get away with.

@mdk

I get what you mean. I'm just arguing against him being a savvy business man.

@POOHEAD189 Plenty of casino's go under, so not really. Actually that sort of shows something, because many people don't survive and continue after the first one. But I won't go too far into it either, because I'm not really wanting to defend him that badly either.

I'll admit Bush wasn't the biggest problem during his presidency run. But the people surrounding him were a bunch of knuckle-draggers. People like Karl Rove, made his presidency what it was.

And I agreed with that sentiment too. But I do think there's more that people could unite on, that politics current game is to be as unbearable and toxic as possible. Making middle ground only seem more impossible, but even attempting to be civil would be a nice change.

@SleepingSilence

Some Casinos close, but them going bankrupt takes a rare person.

I agree with your other two points :)