Frokane's Mildly Politcal Hangout Thread

[mdk]

<Snipped quote by mdk>
I get what you mean. I'm just arguing against him being a savvy business man.

@POOHEAD189

If one could acquire Trump-level wealth without being a savvy business man, I'd be wealthier than I am.

[POOHEAD189]

<Snipped quote by POOHEAD189>

If one could acquire Trump-level wealth without being a savvy business man, I'd be wealthier than I am.

@mdk

Well, all you need is a wealthy father who helps manage your affairs, a recognizable face, and a lotta fallback money.

[SleepingSilence]

@Vilageidiotx

Kickstarter is like shark tank, it rewards immediate marketable innovation and potato salad. Kickstarter isn't nearly complex enough to handle something the size of a green energy on the same scale that interventionism can.

@Vilageidiotx

Was just pointing out that innovation and good ideas are rewarded in the market. And if potato salad can somehow be funded...why does the government need to spend so much damn money themselves? (of others money.) This is a less serious point.

But, my main hang up will always be government subsides and bailouts. They should not exist, nothing is 'too big to fail', it leads to price increases and many bad things...

It's never 'worth' it. And really for how much we have wasted, it's getting into the sunk cost fallacy at this rate.

Has Hillary Clinton ever used the word "Cis"? Let's not get tumblr and mainstream politics confused. I mean, I'm a white dude and I've never felt personally threatened by the Dems. Though I suppose that'd make me a Cuck in proper conservative parlance.

@Vilageidiotx

Uh, she's called African-American youth superpredators before...and all of Trump supporters deplorable people. So um, wouldn't exactly put it past her? I don't know why it's worth defending.



That screams pretty tumblr-y to me. This video is also accurate to why I don't think she's worth defending...

aw lawd

@Vilageidiotx

Sorry. :P

Yeh, I was siding with you on this. I just don't like spending a shit load of time on organizing the quotes, so going and hunting down the Estonian kid's name and then copy/pasting it was more work than I wanted to put in.

@Vilageidiotx

It has happened historically and can happen again. A person can become too rich in that wealth disparity can come to symbolize failing returns for labor. It isn't an accident that the neo-liberal period of economic history coincides with the wage stagnation period.

@Vilageidiotx

Don't worry I'm lazy too. xP

zerohedge.com/news/2016-08-14/heres-w…

cato.org/publications/policy-analysis…

forbes.com/sites/jeffreydorfman/2014/…

[Andreyich]

goddamit. IQ tests are imperfect measures of intelligence.

no such a thing as perfect anything. It's pretty good though

@Andreyich *sigh*

<Snipped quote by Andreyich>

That's a stupid rebuttal. I'm sure doctors, lawyers and teachers want to feed their families too. Do we not pay them?

@SleepingSilence

That's a shit analogy

Again, non-statement. No, it's not greedy...If others -want- to pay you. You sound very much like someone demonizing a company for making money, right now and you didn't have that opinion before.

and that's a shit comparison/deduction.

Because you don't seem to understand, that people should get paid for work.

That's not work lol especially since nobody even looks at the ads for these videos so they're a one man breakdown of any economic system.

Again there's a lot of sub-par workers in general, they get paid too. :/ Whatever you're arguing, and at this point I'm not even sure what it is...it's wrong.

They get fired lol

+12-17 points difference on average is not -very- little...

That's hyperbole, and because the smart get rich, not vice versa.

The point remains that it doesn't even measure overall intelligence well at all...

Yes it does. Not perfectly but well enough for someone to come to all sorts of wonderful conclusions from it.

I suppose that last statement kind of just goes past anything, but spiteful racism...

Man I'm fucking evil because I want the Chinese to stop dumping shit in our country and violating all sorts of international laws that even my country goes by and because they flood in their workers who via numbers replace the native workers thus increasing the already pretty big amount of poor people we have. Aren't I an evil bastard.
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saying shit like that is how ordinary edgelords like me get radicalized

EDIT: I also realized that this is in a way similar to what happened in some of the middle east, with my country playing some arab nation and China being the U.S. and the poster above somebody annoying an already disgruntled person from there making them join some terrorist group in frustration.

Shit's deep yo, this actually makes me reconsider some jingoistic/xenophobic beliefs I had towards some people from the Middle East.

But no, it CAN'T do that. It DOESN'T show your peak...I just said, you can improve your scores...

You can but only temporarily; the IQ of children in MENA was improved in some recent tests but only by preparing them specifically for the test and asking near identical questions.

Studies have found significant increase in IQ from one generation to the other. It increases 21 points on an average in 30 years. Such an increase can result only from the surrounding environment. Hence, it is proved that IQ does change based on the environment.

That's to do with selection and the next generation being more intelligent, not to mention as said earlier that Africans in France have reduced the IQ by more than 4 points over the same time span.

You're trying to tell me, that race mixing hasn't been a thing? I'm sorry to jump in the accusatory statements, but I think you're flat out being intellectually dishonest here...

No, I'm saying that this isn't anything new and has been going on for the last 1500+ years but might I note that the Israelites were told not to mix their seed, and surprise surprise they got the highest IQ of all groups.

You may not see America being diverse, being a good thing. But I certainly do. I love the melting pot concept. And I wouldn't live anywhere else.

Yes, but see you won't stay a melting pot, you'll turn into a homogenous society in about 100 years. Brazil used to be a melting pot, now it's all of the same thing with only a few holdouts of unique cultural communities that still keep their culture and ethnicity in tact.

European debt crisis: It's not just Greece that's drowning in debt

Nothing new, but I do think blaming merkel is a great idea; Poland is ethnically homogenous and would you look at that, no terrorism!

Yes, Violent Crime Has Spiked In Sweden Since Open Immigration

stop being so intolerant, this is part and parcel of living in a big city

Europe is failing, and Merkel can’t save it

It does say "opinion" in the title but I do think it's right. That said, new coalitions of sane countries are forming, i.e. Austria and Balkan friends. Good lads in Macedonia are even tear-gassing and and blasting rubber at the invaders, whilst Serbia is slowly deciding to not join the EU, and is forcefully removing kebab independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/s…

So in short, EU is failing, not Europe. The states that lived under communism now see the retardation inherent in the left, though Western Europe is going to have to learn with it's blood.

[SleepingSilence]

@POOHEAD189 He gave him a million bucks. I think Trump has made a pretty good returns in that investment. xP

I mean almost all small business owners get loans...I don't see why that's put against him.

I feel like I'm defending a man, who I'd probably be perfectly fine mocking under most circumstances...I just feel like, he's already gotten his 8 years of bush hatred out, without a year in office. And a lot of it isn't well justified either.

[SleepingSilence]

@Andreyich



You are a political strawman that exists in real life.

[POOHEAD189]

@POOHEAD189 He gave him a million bucks. I think Trump has made a pretty good returns in that investment. xP

I mean almost all small business owners get loans...I don't see why that's put against him.

I feel like I'm defending a man, who I'd probably be perfectly fine mocking under most circumstances...I just feel like, he's already gotten his 8 years of bush hatred out, without a year in office. And a lot of it isn't well justified either.

@SleepingSilence

He got a million dollars, and inherited a lot of business assets, and as I said, his father managed a lot of his affairs. His business base was not made from himself.
Look, Trump isn't all bad. But he has little in the way of redeeming qualities.

[Andreyich]

@Andreyich



You are a political strawman that exists in real life.

@SleepingSilence

That's pretty fucking ironic

[SleepingSilence]

@Andreyich You said you want all Chinese to move out. I called it racism. Something you called yourself, then changed your mind. And you flipped me off. I'm pretty sure nothing else can be gained from this discussion. :P

So yes, you unironically calling yourself an edgelord and saying you get radicalized like you'll become a white terrorist and being unnecessarily hostile when I really wasn't. Yeah. You are a strawman that is apparently real.

Beside I haven't ate since 5 and food sounds a lot better than wasting time here.

[SleepingSilence]

@POOHEAD189 I probably agree. :P

[Andreyich]

You said you want all Chinese to move out. I called it racism. Something you called yourself, then changed your mind. You flipped me off

Exactly, you insisted on throwing shit at me for caring about the well-being of fatherland.

So yes, you unironically calling yourself an edgelord and saying you get radicalized like you'll become a white terrorist and being unnecessarily hostile when I really wasn't

I'm not going to become that but the possibility is quite frightening.

But it's not a strawman, because it's a very real thing that does in fact happen even if exaggerated.

[Penny]

Yeah. You are a strawman that is apparently real.

@SleepingSilence

Wow, that is aptly put!

[Vilageidiotx]

[quote=@SleepingSilence]
@Vilageidiotx

Was just pointing out that innovation and good ideas are rewarded in the market. And if potato salad can somehow be funded...why does the government need to spend so much damn money themselves? (of others money.) This is a less serious point.

But, my main hang up will always be government subsides and bailouts. They should not exist, nothing is 'too big to fail', it leads to price increases and many bad things...

It's never 'worth' it. And really for how much we have wasted, it's getting into the sunk cost fallacy at this rate.

I'm not saying the market has no utility at all, I'm saying that the market isn't designed for long-term research on its own and requires subsdidy to work. The market is one tool, not the entire tool kit.

Also, I dislike the shit out of bailouts too, and I think shit like the Auto industry bailout was unnecessary (though politically useful I'm sure). I also think the bankers being rewarded was a despicable injustice and the bankers themselves who drove the housing collapse should have been booted into abject poverty for what they pulled. But I do have to say that the bank bailout itself was neccessary. Without it, the entire financial system would have caved in completely. That is insanely dangerous, especially in an economy as financialized as ours, and one where we rely on so much specialization that makes returning from a full depression very difficult.

Uh, she's called African-American youth superpredators before...and all of Trump supporters deplorable people. So um, wouldn't exactly put it past her? I don't know why it's worth defending.

You can draw some fucked up quotes from the other guy too (lord knows we've heard them enough to not need repeat them). Point being that the black and white "All Dems are feminist cucks and all Reps are MAGA" is over simplistic.

Don't worry I'm lazy too. xP (the rich people thing)

nakedcapitalism.com/wp-content/upload…

This belies the argument in those articles that capitalists aren't being allowed to create jobs by an evil government that is regulating them to death. Such a world would be one where profit follows wages downward. What we've seen instead is a capitalism that has been able to cut workers out. Neo-Liberalism hasn't helped - it has destroyed the labor movements, weakened mid twentieth century regulation on the financial system so people can play unsustainable games with money, and as a result wages are fucked. Personally, I suspect that automation has done a big part of this too; we see that productivity hasn't suffered. Automation isn't so much about replacing all jobs as it is about driving down the cost of labor, which breaks the traditional capitalist relationship because the only way labor can participate in an idealistic market system is through labor, and anything that slows down that damages wealth access among the majority (giving us that annoying media trend that is "why r millenials not spending?")

This is to say again that the market system is not God. It doesn't fix all problems and answer every situation perfectly. It's as much an imperfect institution as any other. And it can, of course, change depending on the circumstances.

@POOHEAD189 He gave him a million bucks. I think Trump has made a pretty good returns in that investment. xP

I mean almost all small business owners get loans...I don't see why that's put against him.

I feel like I'm defending a man, who I'd probably be perfectly fine mocking under most circumstances...I just feel like, he's already gotten his 8 years of bush hatred out, without a year in office. And a lot of it isn't well justified either.

@SleepingSilence

Ehh... he was also President of his father's business and had his father's business contacts and, of course, name. He didn't branch into a new industry to make his billions. Shit, he didn't even branch into a new city. He just went to a different borough of NYC.

The point isn't that he is evil for having been an aristocrat. The point is that he is an aristocrat, not a self made man.

@Andreyich You said you want all Chinese to move out. I called it racism. Something you called yourself, then changed your mind. And you flipped me off. I'm pretty sure nothing else can be gained from this discussion. :P

So yes, you unironically calling yourself an edgelord and saying you get radicalized like you'll become a white terrorist and being unnecessarily hostile when I really wasn't. Yeah. You are a strawman that is apparently real.

@SleepingSilence

Like I said, you guys have your own demons too, politics ain't "Left is all bad right is all good."

And I agreed with that sentiment too. But I do think there's more that people could unite on, that politics current game is to be as unbearable and toxic as possible. Making middle ground only seem more impossible, but even attempting to be civil would be a nice change.

@SleepingSilence

Eh, aside from the Estonian kid flipping your off, we're doing a pretty good job here.

And really, this is common politics on the ground. Not everybody following politics is an SJW or a White Nationalist. Most of us on both sides are just regular motherfuckers going to work and about our business.

[SleepingSilence]

I'm not saying the market has no utility at all, I'm saying that the market isn't designed for long-term research on its own and requires subsidy* to work. The market is one tool, not the entire tool kit.

Also, I dislike the shit out of bailouts too, and I think shit like the Auto industry bailout was unnecessary (though politically useful I'm sure). I also think the bankers being rewarded was a despicable injustice and the bankers themselves who drove the housing collapse should have been booted into abject poverty for what they pulled. But I do have to say that the bank bailout itself was necessary* Without it, the entire financial system would have caved in completely. That is insanely dangerous, especially in an economy as financialized as ours, and one where we rely on so much specialization that makes returning from a full depression very difficult.

@Vilageidiotx

Subsidies are not needed for businesses to run efficiently. (Wasn't even looking for it, but the links are right.)

mercatus.org/publication/subsidies-ar…

yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/energy-su…

the-american-interest.com/2014/02/21/…

review.chicagobooth.edu/magazine/spri… (Here's one about just business in general opposed to energy.)

I also disagree that the bailouts were good or necessary either, because that kind of thing is my point. That if the government promises to pay, they will inevitably charge more. That's why college is so expensive, it's why the housing market crashed.

forbes.com/sites/johntamny/2011/03/06…

theguardian.com/commentisfree/cifamer…

You can draw some fucked up quotes from the other guy too (lord knows we've heard them enough to not need repeat them). Point being that the black and white "All Dems are feminist cucks and all Reps are MAGA" is over simplistic.

@Vilageidiotx

I suppose so, though I'm not the one defending a politician who has way more money than me. :P

Well like I said, most of the right also seem to be hating on Trump plenty too...unlike Obama where the left outright ignored him/barely even made fun of his administration, for his first term.

nakedcapitalism.com/wp-content/upload…

This belies the argument in those articles that capitalists aren't being allowed to create jobs by an evil government that is regulating them to death. Such a world would be one where profit follows wages downward. What we've seen instead is a capitalism that has been able to cut workers out. Neo-Liberalism hasn't helped - it has destroyed the labor movements, weakened mid twentieth century regulation on the financial system so people can play unsustainable games with money, and as a result wages are fucked. Personally, I suspect that automation has done a big part of this too; we see that productivity hasn't suffered. Automation isn't so much about replacing all jobs as it is about driving down the cost of labor, which breaks the traditional capitalist relationship because the only way labor can participate in an idealistic market system is through labor, and anything that slows down that damages wealth access among the majority (giving us that annoying media trend that is "why r millenials not spending?")

@Vilageidiotx

The site itself would of been more useful than just the chart itself. (2nd link said file not found?) Also that first chart doesn't point out if it's before or after taxes. Another reason why GDP has gone so high up for companies.

forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2013/05/…

And I suppose I don't know where you stand, you point out to not wanting to stop the future progress. But automation, is a part of that. (and also they need maintenance and it's not just killing jobs. Be more accurate to say we're shifting them.)

I'm not saying there isn't some problems here, it's kind of fucked up my parents haven't received raises in quite a long ass time. But I feel it's also a bit more complicated than blaming it solely on the system itself.

This is to say again that the market system is not God. It doesn't fix all problems and answer every situation perfectly. It's as much an imperfect institution as any other. And it can, of course, change depending on the circumstances.

@Vilageidiotx

Of course not. But this system is about as fair, as it can get when it's not being abused. It works on everyone's own merits and contribution to society and clearly has worked better than other systems, given America's success with it.

Ehh... he was also President of his father's business and had his father's business contacts and, of course, name. He didn't branch into a new industry to make his billions. Shit, he didn't even branch into a new city. He just went to a different borough of NYC.

The point isn't that he is evil for having been an aristocrat. The point is that he is an aristocrat, not a self made man.

@Vilageidiotx

"He didn't even branch into a new city." I really, really don't see how that's relevant. He's apart (or attempted to be) in a ton of different industries, whether they failed or not...

Yeah, yeah 'you didn't build that' kind of deal. But I still really don't see that being all that true or relevant to his success. Most businesses aren't "made by itself", but someone DOES need to take the risk. He clearly was the one to do that and he seems more successful as a business man than not. (Now whether any of this actually translates to "president worthy" is debatable. But if someone is going to bash Trump, the fact that his Trump Organization alone, employees 22,450 people and makes 9.5 billion in revenue. And has been in business for 90 plus years. Shouldn't be it.)

townhall.com/columnists/bryancrabtree…

Like I said, you guys have your own demons too, politics ain't "Left is all bad right is all good."

@Vilageidiotx

Uh...This kid (and I swear he does not appear to be 18 and up.) Told me, "youtubers are greedy because others freely support them with money." And also tried defending communism perspectives...That's about as right leaning economically. As jumping off a building, to stop yourself from polluting the earth. :/

But yes, #NotAll.

Eh, aside from the Estonian kid flipping your off, we're doing a pretty good job here.

And really, this is common politics on the ground. Not everybody following politics is an SJW or a White Nationalist. Most of us on both sides are just regular motherfuckers going to work and about our business.

@Vilageidiotx

I didn't mean for that statement to be a personal statement. I'm not talking about this forum when I say that. It's outside of this, it's a wider scope, but it's still everywhere. You just need to not hide yourself from it. To find it.

I know most people are normal people, with normal lives. But many people seem to try to demonize the other side, and not just that but everyone in general. I know you somehow still don't think this election has been much more toxic and hateful on both sides. (especially one.) But yeah my mind won't change on that either. But yes, these conversations are fine.

[Andreyich]

Uh...This kid (and I swear he does not appear to be 18 and up.) Told me, "youtubers are greedy because others freely support them with money." And also tried defending communism perspectives...That's about as right leaning economically. As jumping off a building, to stop yourself from polluting the earth. :/

You got me

[SleepingSilence]

I feel like I have these interactions or see them far too often. I'm too old for this shit.

<.< Yes, you being stupid makes you clever. Keep telling yourself that.

[Penny]

Yes, you being stupid makes you clever. Keep telling yourself that.

@SleepingSilence

Oh they are, that is kind of the problem.

[Andreyich]

But spamming shit emoticons and going "lel they're delusional just accept I'm right" is an excellent riposte.

[Penny]

There isn't much you can do that people who reject the broad consensus of the scientific community. It is a lost cause, you might as well have some fun.

[SleepingSilence]

There isn't much you can do that people who reject the broad consensus of the scientific community. It is a lost cause, you might as well have some fun.

@Penny

Not sure who this is meant for, if anyone. But science just doesn't work that way. I really hope people understand this, that broad consensus isn't how they operate...

scienceisneversettled.com/consensus-i…

The late Michael Crichton, MD, author, film producer, put it this way:
“I want to pause here and talk about this notion of consensus, and the rise of what has been called consensus science. I regard consensus science as an extremely pernicious development that ought to be stopped cold in its tracks. Historically, the claim of consensus has been the first refuge of scoundrels; it is a way to avoid debate by claiming that the matter is already settled. Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you’re being had.

“Let’s be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus.