[OOC] (High Casual) An Age Old Feud

[Bishop]

@Fabricant451 Lol you think that if Jack dies someone in the royal blood line is gonna rule? They're all gonna be killed off down to the last friend that they know. One of his loyalists will be king and he will carry out war. And I still don't see how it is an empty threat...
It is a serious threat. And besides loyalism, think about the nazi soldiers, how they all worshiped hitler whilst being a crime to do otherwise. The country is heavily rules with propaganda taught from school, to the soldiers and especially to his elite force.

I don't understand your logic still. If Jack is put in prison that is a declaration of war as another kingdom has taken their King prisoner. You think that most of the generals will be "glad he is gone, now how shall I take the throne for myself..". He is surrounded by loyalists. All positions of power given to those he deems trustworthy.

[Fabricant451]

@Bishop If Jack dies he has no guarantee that the royal blood dies with him nor can he even be sure that a loyalist with no true claim to the throne will step in. If anything, it wouldn't be a Jack loyalist and if there was no heir then Slibah could and likely would become a puppet state. Or there would be conflict as various houses vie for the position. Does Jack honestly think some guy who supported a terrible person and a worse king would sit the throne for any meaningful period of time? What's stopping the people from using Jack's death as a means of revolution? They're surely not happy with him as is. If anything, so far Maddox seems far more reasonable by virtue of the fact that he's not a raving lunatic that murders people for no reason. Jack dies and the control he has dies with him.

If Jack is put in prison it's not an act of war. An act of war would be threatening Jack or else harming him or things in that vein. Jack coming in and murdering civilians or else doing harm to the foreign lands is Jack doing actions that could be taken as a declaration of war. Jack is a guest, technically, and shitting on the carpet is not going to do anyone any favors. You think that Jack being punished for his actions will spur the people to war because their king is a fucking asshole who thinks he can do whatever he wants?

Jack isn't a godking, especially not in a territory that doesn't belong to him.

But let's assume that arresting Jack for crimes (hypothetically) starts a conflict. Slibah would be heavily disadvantaged because they'd be down a king and it's not as if the army is full of loyalists. It would create a vacuum and do more harm for Slibah than anything else. 'Loyal to the country, not the king' is a sentiment I'm sure is shared with a good number of people in Slibah.

It is an empty threat because Abhain can wait for Slibah to implode and swoop in and end the long standing conflict in the chaos of a power vacuum. There is no possible way that every single man, woman, child, and soldier is loyal to Jack. And what are the accompanied men in Abhain going to do if Jack fucks around and makes things bad? Fight the fuckin' army on their home turf? Good luck with that.

Jack is a terrible king and he'll be even worse if his plan is "Yo I'm gonna kill some of your people, Maddox, but don't do anythin' in response or it's war, k?" He's not the fucking Joker and inciting chaos and calling it a plan.

[Pundii]

[The Valkyrie]

And didn't the old kings die not so long ago? The only brainwashed soldiers would be children, teenagers, or fairly young adults. All the adults will remember what it was like to have a sane king. If you look at history, psychotic and/or murderous monarchs don't last very long even in their own kingdoms. Especially if you roll up into another sovereign's lands and start killing folks for no good reason.

Everything in moderation. Even murder, lol.

[Bishop]

If Jack dies he has no guarantee that the royal blood dies with him nor can he even be sure that a loyalist with no true claim to the throne will step in. If anything, it wouldn't be a Jack loyalist and if there was no heir then Slibah could and likely would become a puppet state. Or there would be conflict as various houses vie for the position. Does Jack honestly think some guy who supported a terrible person and a worse king would sit the throne for any meaningful period of time? What's stopping the people from using Jack's death as a means of revolution? They're surely not happy with him as is. If anything, so far Maddox seems far more reasonable by virtue of the fact that he's not a raving lunatic that murders people for no reason. Jack dies and the control he has dies with him.

Contingency plan.

If Jack is put in prison it's not an act of war. An act of war would be threatening Jack or else harming him or things in that vein. Jack coming in and murdering civilians or else doing harm to the foreign lands is Jack doing actions that could be taken as a declaration of war. Jack is a guest, technically, and shitting on the carpet is not going to do anyone any favors. You think that Jack being punished for his actions will spur the people to war because their king is a fucking asshole who thinks he can do whatever he wants?

Does "loyalist" mean anything to you? The people don't need to like him, the general in charge of his absence needs to support him.

Jack isn't a godking, especially not in a territory that doesn't belong to him.

Of course..not?

But let's assume that arresting Jack for crimes (hypothetically) starts a conflict. Slibah would be heavily disadvantaged because they'd be down a king and it's not as if the army is full of loyalists. It would create a vacuum and do more harm for Slibah than anything else. 'Loyal to the country, not the king' is a sentiment I'm sure is shared with a good number of people in Slibah.

Errr...his generals? Is there even that big a vacuum?

It is an empty threat because Abhain can wait for Slibah to implode and swoop in and end the long standing conflict in the chaos of a power vacuum. There is no possible way that every single man, woman, child, and soldier is loyal to Jack. And what are the accompanied men in Abhain going to do if Jack fucks around and makes things bad? Fight the fuckin' army on their home turf? Good luck with that.

Contingency plan.
Only the leaders that take the crown in his absence needs to support his plan.

Jack is a terrible king and he'll be even worse if his plan is "Yo I'm gonna kill some of your people, Maddox, but don't do anythin' in response or it's war, k?" He's not the fucking Joker and inciting chaos and calling it a plan.

Come on now...he is not that bad. I mean hell, it's not like he beheaded Ned Stark or killed Robb and his men at a wedding. He is not a heartless mo..oh wait he is.
But here's the thing. He doesn't kill without reason and he never has. If no one messes with him, if no one ticks him off then it'll all be good...I promise.
@Fabricant451

[vFear]

It'll be interesting to see how it plays out IC, anyways. IC being the choice words.

[Fabricant451]

Does "loyalist" mean anything to you? The people don't need to like him, the general in charge of his absence needs to support him.

@Bishop

It's easy to be loyal to someone when they're alive. People don't have to remain loyal to someone that's dead. Roose Bolton was loyal to Robb Stark. Randyll Tarly was loyal to Olenna Tyrell. House Tyrell was loyal to Renly Baratheon. House Tyrell was loyal to House Lannister. And those are just the obvious fictional examples. Loyalty often results in betrayal for a variety of reasons, most commonly because moral principles or personal interests take precedence. Putting faith in loyal soldiers in a setting like this is just asking for an 'Et tu, Brute' moment.

In a setting like this, 'loyalist' means 'when are they going to betray you'. And honestly a hypothetically dead Jack no longer holds any leashes so there would be no consequence for some disloyalty in that situation. People are complex beings and short of brainwashing how is he going to ensure loyalty, especially if he's dead and thus has zero leverage.

Errr...his generals? Is there even that big a vacuum?

Depending on the number of houses and desires, yes. And again, generals aren't infallible and they don't outnumber an army of people who might not have any loyalties to their now dead king. What's keeping the generals so loyal if Jack's dead? Brainwashing? You brought up the Game of Thrones thing so I'll continue that: The War of the Five Kings was fought when Robert Baratheon died and two of the factions weren't even fighting for the throne specifically. People that see an opportunity for power often will make every attempt to get it when the opportunity arises.

Contingency plan.
Only the leaders that take the crown in his absence needs to support his plan.

I'm sure a leader that takes the crown in the wake of Jack dying would happily be "No yeah I'll stick to the plan, Jack, you dead man." This contingency plan is putting a lot of faith in people that shouldn't have a lot of faith put in them.

Come on now...he is not that bad. I mean hell, it's not like he beheaded Ned Stark or killed Robb and his men at a wedding. He is not a heartless mo..oh wait he is.
But here's the thing. He doesn't kill without reason and he never has. If no one messes with him, if no one ticks him off then it'll all be good...I promise.

He killed an innocent man in front of an audience because he stood near a door. If that's reason enough to kill a person then he is that bad. And it's not at all how you inspire loyalty in your people. The thing about people like Jack in tales like these is that they don't get happy endings. You want to play the Joffrey figure, don't expect everyone to just let you run free without consequence.

[Bishop]

They don't have to be loyal to him even after death, per say. They just have to believe in the cause and want it. The individuals that are close to him believe in Jack's visions, people who he shares the same goals with.

That's the reason his soldiers are trained to give their life for the country and not Jack, so him dying doesn't hinder any advancement of plans.

Loyalty in people? They get better payment than they did with the previous kings, the families of course. Even if the man are working nonstop in the mines and whatnot their families fare better.

And aside from this, don't forget the religion that has also been heavily influenced by Jack himself. He controls the religious organ, the church. That means the people, as the church pretends to be on their side and the people support it likewise.

And what about his secret police? They have directives, they won't let things go array and they would make sure that things went according to him in case of his death.

[The Valkyrie]

So... how long as it actually been since Jack has been in power? Not very long, from my understanding. How does he have all of these brainwashed generals, secret police, and under-thumb religious figures?

And you mention that Jack's "people" share the same goals as him. What goals does Jack aspire to beyond wanton murder?

Also, religion doesn't usually dance to the tune of men--even men in power. Just look at Henry the VIII. He had to really pull some teeth to get away with the soft-core kitten play--compared to Jack's--stuff that he did and even then, he didn't get away with all of it. Unless you are like a pharaoh in which case you are said to literally be the embodiment of a god on earth.

Wait, I've just had an epiphany: Jack is not only a murdering lunatic, but he's also having grandiose delusions; he just thinks that he has all of these things working for him. That totally makes more sense.

---

In all seriousness, this has been a fun discussion to watch so far, to say the least.

[Fabricant451]

It'd be interesting to see how many people share these 'visions' when the literal actual crazy psycho king man is out of the picture. You can't buy loyalty, especially not in citizens and especially not by forcing men to work long, harsh hours in mines. Money doesn't buy happiness and it sure as shit doesn't buy loyalty. Nor is money an infinite thing. Wars are expensive. "Oh my husband and sons died in the labor camp mine but I got a huge insurance policy so I'm over it, hail Jack".

Jack can't control the people with money and fear only gets you so far. Earlier you mentioned Hitler so that cat's out of the bag. Hitler had secret police and after the war it was declared a criminal organization. So much for Jack's secret police in the event of death.

As far as religion goes, what about the citizens who aren't religious? What about if the religious sorts get a bit too over-zealous? Control is not an absolute thing, especially when the king is going out of his way to make himself look like the worst person possible. Be a heartless tyrant long enough and people are going to want change. And they won't mind getting violent to make it happen. Jack can't just be a ruler that solves problems with money and murder.

[Bishop]

@The Valkyrie The king was sick most of the time, staying in bed and so on and so forth. Jack had to deal with most of the matters while the King approved his projects. Just like he slipped that peace treaty agreement he slipped many other things in the King's hand.

The religious figureheads are corrupt. And it also depends on how wide spread the religion is. Do the 2 kingdoms have a single religion? Are the religious organs of the 2 kingdoms connected and cooperate with each other?
I thought of this religion as one belonging only to the kingdom of Slibah. And this is the oldest religion in the land as it was the first. I mean, the kingdom was created 100 years ago and I didn't see any specified religion when it was created. So you see, it is pretty easy to manipulate a religion like this. The people side with it since it was from the beginning and it actively supports the people. The King, since the religion strictly belongs only within the kingdom has it easy to control it.

In the last few years it has started to spread outside along with the increased trading back and forth with the kingdoms overseas. But since it originated in SLibah, the king has it easy to control it. You think you can't just win over someone and kill those who refuse to give in, making your piece become the king?

[Bishop]

@Fabricant451 Oh god please please slow down. It was declared a criminal organization because they lost. But if Jack dies how does that make any sense? The power structure is still intact, it has been devised in this way. You think that if hitler died, without the major military strat fuck ups taking place, there wouldn't be a new hitler? Hitler had a vision, shared by everyone who was under him. How did he plan to keep his empire for 1000 years if him dying meant the end of everything?

And you think every one knows that Jack kills left and right. How would it benefit him to make that fact public? You think he walks around killing people on sight because he feels like it? All the people know are the harsh working conditions. Anyone who speaks openly against him then "changes mind" the next day.

And the generals and lords share his vision not the damn commoners. As long as the military along with the soldiers fights for the cause, what are the commoners gonna do? Why are they gonna do it?

And this religion isn't only pray pray pray. It also helps a lot of people especially those who have suffered in the harsh working conditions and their families. Sometimes it has also opposed the king on minor things for the sake of the people and the king has "given in and accepted their request" so, winning more people on the religion's side. Now the kingdom is divided either to those who support the king's vision and those who are with the church, somewhat unhappy with the current conditions being a part of and helping the religious organization to help others.
Both controlled by the king.

[Fabricant451]

Yeah, I'm sure the people that saw him openly kill a guy for no reason are just dying to keep that fact private. And I'm sure 'changing minds' is doing wonders for his reputation back home. Generals and lords do not outnumber soldiers. Nor do they outnumber a population of people who could revolt. Revolutions are a very real concept and it's not too far a stretch to think a people that have been shit upon and who live in fear couldn't be brought together to change things. And as of now, Jack isn't doing his people any favors nor has he been shown to be good at ruling.

How does Jack plan to keep his legacy when he's doing everything possible short of straight up stabbing Maddox to ensure it all crumbles at the slightest provocation. Jack isn't acting like a king, he's acting like what a child assumes a king is like.

[Bishop]

@Fabricant451

Yeah, I'm sure the people that saw him openly kill a guy for no reason are just dying to keep that fact private.

Yes, they will die if they don't keep it private. You think anyone will just go public to say the truth, assuring their death just to reveal who Jack truly is? Does everyone value their life that little? They are damn lords, do they value their properties, kids and family that little just to speak against the king? And all their accusations will be brought down as defaming and lies. Rumors will spread for atrocities that that person(the one who speaks against the king) has performed and he will be publicly executed with the crowd cheering.

Revolution? err...secret police? err...the church? Who the hell is going to give them a chance to rally up and start a revolution and on what basis? Harsh working conditions? Only the man might have a cause but as long as they are busy providing for their family, yeah they have a family to think about, then why revolt? Why risk everything for not much gain and probably a lot of loss?

His losses of temper are out of his control. It's not like he just wants to kill, murder and torture people all day.

[Fabricant451]

Who says they have to reveal the information publicly? Jack is surrounded by enemies and information has a way of spreading even without the advent of technology. And even if some people did go public, congrats now they're martyrs to the cause of 'Usurp King Jack'. It only takes a few sparks to set a fire and at the moment it seems like Slibah is sitting on tinder and leaves.

As far as revolutions go, the basis of Jack being no better than a tyrant. Forcing people to work with questionable and harsh conditions, suggestions of literally killing people for being like "Man, FUCK Jack" and any number of atrocities that are sure to come up. Someone being publicly executed for speaking up might have some cheering, but it could also have some using that as further fuel. Hence the martyrdom clause. If people are forced to shovel shit, don't be surprised when they start flinging it back.

And if he doesn't want to kill, maybe he should show some restraint going forward.

[Bishop]

@Fabricant451 How is Jack surrounded by enemies? Where did the "shared vision" part go? Who would even spy on him?
You'd think that the "secret police" would even be worth for something but why keep them around when they can't even do their main job?

You'd think that there are only people speaking against him. What about people supporting him by speaking publicly to the masses?
Harsher conditions=better payment than before. Say what you want but there are no jobless people

People are easy to control. By constantly shoving them one side of the bread they will give in. And you think there aren't people speaking against Jack? I mean, those who do so of free will are taken care of but there are countless others, working for Jack, speaking against him just to have another one overthrow that guy with better arguments. Win the argument have better support. Small tactics like these(along with the damn church that you keep forgetting) are what has made people to see Jack, if not with a good eye then with a neutral one.

And if anyone wanted to revolt where do you think they'd go? Recruit the public speakers working for Jack, payed to say weak arguments against him? Go to the church since it has always supported the people and even voiced against Jack, "overthrowing" some of his decisions?
Where would the revolution start? Who would be a part of it and why?

His losses of temper are out of his control. It's not like he just wants to kill, murder and torture people all day.

[The Valkyrie]

So Jack lives in evil Mary-Sue land?

[Bishop]

@The Valkyrie For a guy whose sole purpose had been shaping a country that shared his visions and would carry them on even after his death, he would have to be an incompetent retard to not have taken every measure to weed out any danger that came to that plan. Especially those dangers that came from within. I mean is it that far fetched that you have that level of control over your country and people to not get any revolutions and uprisings?

How do revolutions work anyway? There is always someone who decides that things aren't the way they are supposed to be and tries to convince others to join him. The worst things are the higher the chances of gathering a big crowd. But how bad are things when the only problem the people have is harsh working conditions? Are they that selfish to risk their families just because they got tired working?

[Fabricant451]

Does Jack think everyone is in favor of him? In the loosest sense of the word he is, at this moment in the RP, surrounded by enemies given where he's at and he's done absolutely NOTHING to earn favor with them or show that he's a decent person let alone king. By all accounts this is a diplomatic undertaking and it's been all of ten minutes and Jack's murdered for no reason. What does that say to the witnesses? What does that say for the tension between the kingdoms? It doesn't make Jack look strong. In the event of war, something like that could absolutely be used to inspire Maddox's kingdom. Hence he is surrounded by enemies. And even back in his home turf he'd be crazy to think everyone there is in favor of him. Even good kings have people in the opposition.

What happens when the mines run dry. Jack isn't creating jobs so much as he's forcing people to work. Every man. What about people who have other professions? Are they taken from their businesses and forced to the mines? What if they have a condition that makes them unfit to work the mines? Are they told "Oh it's fine you can do something else?" Because when you suggest that every man is forced to work the mines, it starts sounding like slavery despite claims to the contrary.

And again, money is not infinite and if elderly or unfit people are dying in the mines, that's going to bleed through money because forcing people to work like that is not sustainable long term. Trade alone won't keep a kingdom flourishing, not if there's constant settlements because people develop black lung and die.

You can't possibly assume that every citizen is happy with this arrangement.

As for where the revolution would start, how about people that have been spurned by Jack? People that see him for what he is? Why not someone closer to home even? Public opinion changes on a whim and he can't possibly control the masses with "But I give you money when your family dies" when he's also having people killed because they dare voice a negative opinion of the guy. Treat people like cattle and don't be shocked when they start a stampede.

[Bishop]

@Fabricant451 LOL, mines don't run that fast.

And I wasn't speaking for the lords and ladies of Abhain.

Even good kings have people in the opposition.

What opposition? There is no opposition. There might be those who conspire against him, and like many others before them they will be weeded out and grabbed by the roots.

For those who excel at their chosen talent they keep doing what they do best. Geniuses always shine no matter the age. For the others, it is the mine for them. For those who are too weak to work the mines they can do something else or have their family provide for them. Think about it. You have old man with a family that they want to take care off begging to work at the mines as they plan to die there and want to leave their family some money. I mean, who would want someone in their family that can't work, doesn't provide for it and only takes?

And my bad on the age grouping. People could barely get to 50s let alone 60s. I've messed some numbers up I see. Will get to fix them later.

And....uhhh.....yes my dear. You can very well treat people like cattle to keep them in control. Give them something good with a fat doze of "you know what happens to you when you do that" and get them all in check.

Edit: And the propaganda. Forgot to mention it this time.