Keystone XL

[The Nexerus]

Here's a nice, uncomplicated issue. No religion, no obvious tangent. What's your stance on Keystone XL and why?

[mdk]

Environmentalism is kind of a religion.....

[Goldmarble]

Environmentalist: Keystone XL is bad, it should not happen!!!!

Me: What, you'd prefer tankers on the Coast of BC?

Enviro: No! Why would I want that?!

Me: Then how the hell are they supposed to move their oil, by plane?

Enviro: If everyone drove electric cars, they wouldn't need to move their oil!

Me: So, you like your Kurieg Coffee thingy?

Enviro: Oh my fucking god yes! I love it so much, the fair trade coffee is so good!

Me: And those individual plastic cups for those things are totes made, you know, without oil. Right? And the machine itself has no plastic parts in it, right? It's definitely not going to break in 2-5 years, forcing you to buy another one, right? Are you really this fucking ignorant?

Envrio: Shut up, you don't know what you're talking about!

......Yeah, that pretty much summarizes my opinion on the matter.

[mdk]

Goldmarble said
Environmentalist: Keystone XL is bad, it should not happen!!!!Me: What, you'd prefer tankers on the Coast of BC?Enviro: No! Why would I want that?!Me: Then how the hell are they supposed to move their oil, by plane?Enviro: If everyone drove electric cars, they wouldn't need to move their oil!Me: So, you like your Kurieg Coffee thingy?Enviro: Oh my fucking god yes! I love it so much, the fair trade coffee is so good!Me: And those individual plastic cups for those things are totes made, you know, without oil. Right? And the machine itself has no plastic parts in it, right? It's definitely not going to break in 2-5 years, forcing you to buy another one, right? Are you really this fucking ignorant?Envrio: Shut up, you don't know what you're talking about!......Yeah, that pretty much summarizes my opinion on the matter.

Like most of the leftist agenda, it's really not about the pipeline. If Keystone goes away, their hate machine doesn't just acknowledge the win and move on.... they will always be fighting, because they cannot be satisfied, because status quo is never acceptable. That's.... practically the dictionary definition of an extremist. It doesn't matter how irrational the current goal is, the current goal is just one cog, and they think the bigger picture is worth the hypocrisy.

[Jster]

The Nexerus said
Here's a nice, uncomplicated issue. No religion, no obvious tangent. What's your stance on Keystone XL and why?

So, since the discussion immediately diverted from discussing the issue, I'm going to ask you directly to explain your standpoint.

This is an issue I remember from a while ago and have since become less literate on the problems/sides. I wouldn't mind a brief on the issue.Even if it's biased. I'll get the other side when someone gives a genuine critique of your stance.

[The Nexerus]

Keystone XL is an addition to a massive network of pipelines that already exist across Canada and the United Sates. Pipelines are the most economical and most environmentally sound method of transporting oil, and obstruction of the construction of Keystone XL is not only doing economic damage in the way of restraining the benefits that the pipeline offers directly, but also causing huge gridlock in the other methods of oil transportation that substitute for Keystone out of necessity, such as rail and trucking. To offer a small example of just how big of a necessity easing the transportation crisis for petroleum products is, I'll cite the fact that rail shipments of oil in the United States have increased 4,000% from 2008 to 2013, from 9,500 carloads to over 400,000. As a result of that, more oil was spilled in 2013 in rail accidents than in the thirty years prior to 2013 all put together.

Environmental groups are targeting Keystone because transport is a vulnerability of the oil industry, which they're adamantly opposed to the existence of. Ironically, though, they actually cause environmental disasters by targeting these transport methods, as displayed above.

Pipelines are the safest and cheapest way to transport oil. It's good for everyone.

[Dervish]

I'm kind of indifferent or on the fence about it. I can see the pluses and minuses, but honestly, it's probably a safer option to transport than by ship or truck and will use a lot less fuel to transport it, so on that hand I think it's good. On another, I don't really know what environmentally sensitive land it'll have to cross, so I'd kind of like to know more about that.

I'm all for the oil industry, provided they keep striving to make efforts to minimize the impact they have on the environment when extracting, refining, and distributing it, and there's room for alternate fuel sources in the market.

That's really all I have to say on it.

[Jster]

The Nexerus said
Keystone XL is an addition to a massive network of pipelines that already exist across Canada and the United Sates. Pipelines are the most economical and most environmentally sound method of transporting oil, and obstruction of the construction of Keystone XL is not only doing economic damage in the way of restraining the benefits that the pipeline offers directly, but also causing huge gridlock in the other methods of oil transportation that substitute for Keystone out of necessity, such as rail and trucking. To offer a small example of just how big of a necessity easing the transportation crisis for petroleum products is, I'll cite the fact that rail shipments of oil in the United States have increased 4,000% from 2008 to 2013, from 9,500 carloads to over 400,000. As a result of that, more oil was spilled in 2013 in rail accidents than in the thirty years prior to 2013 all put together.Environmental groups are targeting Keystone because transport is a vulnerability of the oil industry, which they're adamantly opposed to the existence of. Ironically, though, they actually cause environmental disasters by targeting these transport methods, as displayed above.Pipelines are the safest and cheapest way to transport oil. It's good for everyone.

Do they have the path that the pipeline would take if it were approved?

[The Nexerus]

Jster said
Do they have the path that the pipeline would take if it were approved?

[mdk]

See also the environmental impact analysis, full document here.

[gamer5]

I am not from The States so I don't know much about the case at matter but I do know that pipeline transportation is the cheapest way to transport non-solids with a good degree of safety as long as protocols are followed.

Instead of wasting time on arguing about the needed evil of pipelines rather do somethtting to decrease the amount of oil you use yourself. The sooner we get rid of our need for oil the sooner we will put stuff like oil pipelines, tankers and so on into the history books of tomorrow.

[Goldmarble]

gamer5 said
I am not from The States so I don't know much about the case at matter but I do know that pipeline transportation is the cheapest way to transport non-solids with a good degree of safety as long as protocols are followed.Instead of wasting time on arguing about the needed evil of pipelines rather do somethtting to decrease the amount of oil you use yourself. The sooner we get rid of our need for oil the sooner we will put stuff like oil pipelines, tankers and so on into the history books of tomorrow.

You will take my internal combustion engine from my cold, greasy, dead hands! Course, I encourage everyone else to get electric if it is practical for them, or when it does become practical. You know, save the gas for me!

[Dervish]

gamer5 said
I am not from The States so I don't know much about the case at matter but I do know that pipeline transportation is the cheapest way to transport non-solids with a good degree of safety as long as protocols are followed.Instead of wasting time on arguing about the needed evil of pipelines rather do somethtting to decrease the amount of oil you use yourself. The sooner we get rid of our need for oil the sooner we will put stuff like oil pipelines, tankers and so on into the history books of tomorrow.

Sadly, it isn't practical everywhere to discard oil. In heavily rural areas like most of Alberta, you need personal transportation to get anywhere, especially across the vast distances between towns. Public transit really isn't a huge thing out here. That's not even going into what I need for work.

Like Goldy said, if it's practical where you are, it's definitely worth looking into.

[Alkeni Synair]

I couldn't give a crap about the real implications of it, in the interests of full disclosure. :P

Its not going to be lowering gas prices by a noticeable amount, and I really don't care about the environment so long as I can breath the air and drink the water.

I just don't want it to happen because Republicans and the Tea Party have turned it into a banner issue.

#whyyesI'mstupidlypartisanattimes #Idon'tcarethough

[Brovo]

The Keystone XL Pipeline is a logical step economically and environmentally. The only people opposing it are extremely and grossly ignorant of the benefits this will have for all parties involved.

End of story.

[Goldmarble]

Dervish said
Sadly, it isn't practical everywhere to discard oil. In heavily rural areas like most of Alberta, you need personal transportation to get anywhere, especially across the vast distances between towns. Public transit really isn't a huge thing out here. That's not even going into what I need for work.Like Goldy said, if it's practical where you are, it's definitely worth looking into.

Aye, electric cars really....just aren't ready for mass transportation. The battery technology is lagging way behind where it needs to be for it, and there is utterly no infrastructure in place for electric cars as a reliable form of everyday transportation, except in extremely small locations.

Then there's the whole fact that...electric cars have a significant heavy metal, toxic material, and carbon footprint to just build the damn things in the first place, the issues of dead batteries every decade or so, etc. I am hopeful that Graphene based super capacitors might replace the traditional battery in pretty much all formats, but again, that's a hope, but unknown, and still years out from right now.

Even if we get a battery/supercapacitor that is power-dense enough, and can be recharged quickly, we still lack the infrastructure for electric cars. Until we do something drastic, like ripping up all of the roadways in North America and paving with solar panels, we will not have an infrastructure for electric vehicles outside of cities.

Course, even if we do, I will keep my gas powered vehicle until I die. And if by some miracle we convert away from gasoline? Fuck it, I'll convert the bitch to run on LPG, Hydrogen, Propane, or something else. Cause I like my engine sound, and I love my torque curve.

[Alkeni Synair]

Brovo said
The Keystone XL Pipeline is a logical step economically and environmentally. The only people opposing it are extremely and grossly ignorant of the benefits this will have for all parties involved.End of story.

Because the only reason anyone would ever disagree with you is because they're ignorant? That's bullshit whatever the topic.

(Not to say I'm not quite uniformed as to the various pros and cons of the Keystone XL Pipeline. I'm am quite uniformed. But ignorance is never the only reason to oppose a policy proposal, and making the claim that it is is not only poor argument technique but also misleading and counterproductive.)

[Brovo]

Whoa. Chill. Never claimed that in the history of ever. There's just no logical reason to oppose it unless you are an environmental extremist. It's better for the environment because it means running less trucks and trains, whose spills are total and often cannot be contained for hours, days, and in rare cases, even weeks. It's better for the economy because more oil can get to where it needs to be faster and cheaper. It politically ties Canada and the USA tighter than before, and increases our globalized ability to respond to threats and problems.

Literally the only reason one can even have against the keystone pipeline wod be that its part of the oil industry. Which is of course the sole reason everything bad happens from illness to genocide to these nutjobs. Killing the oil industry would cripple the first world. We have to live with it for now.

And that, Skippy, is fact borne from evidence and social necessity. Not an argument of ethos, because nowhere do I list my own credentials or make any sort of argument from authority.

Now relax.

[The Nexerus]

Alkeni Synair said
I just don't want it to happen because Republicans and the Tea Party have turned it into a banner issue. #whyyesI'mstupidlypartisanattimes #Idon'tcarethough

Good thing there aren't more people like you.

[mdk]

The Nexerus said
Good thing there aren't more people like you.

Yes, we've successfully identified the one and only partisan in the United States.

....