Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by The Nexerus
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Halo said
Well, agreed. I never argued otherwise. As the current status quo goes, oil is our only option. We rely on it, so we need to damn well make sure it's reliable, 'cause we're fucked without oil. My whole point was to acknowledge that, and then to go further and say that we should try to develop alternate sources, to move beyond the "necessary evils" involved with our dependence on oil. I think it's pretty hard to argue that it's better to fuel ourselves on oil than clean energy sources, were that option available - so we need to invest to make that option available.


Oil is never going to die out. We're never going to make plastics out of hydro-electricity or the wind. Calling the oil industry a necessary evil is unnecessarily pessimistic. It's the attitude that causes objection to things like Keystone XL.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by Halo
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The Nexerus said
Oil is never going to die out. We're never going to make plastics out of hydro-electricity or the wind. Calling the oil industry a necessary evil is unnecessarily pessimistic. It's the attitude that causes objection to things like Keystone XL.


Then we will have to find an alternative to plastics. Oil is finite. One day, we're gonna run out. It isn't produced nearly as fast as we use it, and simple mathematics tells us that means it is gonna run out someday, and we're gonna have to rely on something else someday. If anything, it tells us that our investment in alternative energy sources is even more important - we need to stop using our reserves of oil on energy, when other options exist, so that we have as much as possible to produce other things that we can only get from oil.

And I don't think it's pessimistic, it's realistic. Believing oil will last forever and never preparing a fallback plan for when it runs out and everything goes tits up would be ridiculously over-optimistic.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by So Boerd
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Oil is finite


So is the sun. The only question is when.

Can you imagine how silly it would have been in the 1830s for government to invest in hydropower at the expense of oil? We shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. Coal and Oil to natural gas, natural gas to nuclear fission, fission to fusion. I suspect the renewable we know will never be nothing but a sideshow on the global stage.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by Halo
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So Boerd said
So is the sun. The only question is when.Can you imagine how silly it would have been in the 1830s for government to invest in hydropower at the expense of oil? We shouldn't get ahead of ourselves. Coal and Oil to natural gas, natural gas to nuclear fission, fission to fusion. I suspect the renewable we know will never be nothing but a sideshow on the global stage.


For all practical intents and purposes, the sun can provide us with a limitless amount of renewable energy. When the sun dies, we fucking die, so the energy it can provide will last until the death of humanity. I'm gonna just count that as infinite, here - it's renewable energy. Unlike oil and fossil fuels. Which will run out far before the death of Earth and humanity. Please, don't be ridiculous.

This isn't the 1830s. Arguing for what we should do now with what we should have done 200 years ago is ludicrous. Also, the linear way you view this hypothetical development of energy sources has already been fucked to high hell by the fact that we already use nuclear fission and are working towards nuclear fusion, and by the fact that that's just sort of not how things work. Neat, linear, orderly little progressions like you picture don't occur in real life, in which we are always pushing forwards to new frontiers, and someone is always trying to jump ahead of the curve. As for your assertion that renewable energy as we know it is somehow obsolete already, well, there are statistics all over the place that show the ridiculous amounts of power we could generate if we had X amount of solar panels or Y amount of hydroelectric plants - I'm sure you can find them yourself. They provide plenty of evidence that renewable energy as we know it is feasible.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by So Boerd
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That progression is of our principle source of energy. Solar is unreliable as is wind for the overwhelming majority of the planet. Only hydropower and geothermal are appropriately dependable.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by mdk
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So Boerd said
The question is, should the government do it. I say no, because they muck it up. See: Solyndra.


In this case it's a question of whether or not the government will allow the private company (TransCanada) to build. The local governments (primarily Nebraska) have already approved, and all required diligence has been done. It's really just the feds standing in the way.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by So Boerd
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Right. By all means, if people want to voluntarily invest in renewable energy, go ahead. If a company wants to build this environmentally neutral pipeline, go ahead. Just no government force.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by Turtlicious
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The Nexerus said
Here's a nice, uncomplicated issue. No religion, no obvious tangent. What's your stance on Keystone XL and why?


Hahahahahaa you know what you're doing.

I haven't done enough research to have a strong opinion on it, my knee jerk reaction is:

Instead of spending that money on moving more fossil fuels, use it to fund a green power alternative instead.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by Dervish
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Turtlicious said
Hahahahahaa you know what you're doing.I haven't done enough research to have a strong opinion on it, my knee jerk reaction is:Instead of spending that money on moving more fossil fuels, use it to fund a green power alternative instead.


It'll actually save quite a bit of money in the long run to pump it via pipeline instead of by ship or truck, which have a lot higher potential for not very fun environmental disasters. In that regard, it's something that will make a return on its investment in a not-too-unreasonable amount of time, especially in light of how many millions of barrels worth of crude would be shipped a week.

I'm all for developing sustainable green technology, but we can't just turn the switch off of oil, not for a long time to come. Pretty much everyone depends on it and all of our technology derives from oil-based resources, processes, and use. People are certainly working on developing and making green solutions, but so far nothing that can replace the scale of production or overall use of oil. There's also growing pains, and two of the leading alternative solutions, electric vehicles and ethanol fuels, have no small amount of growing pains.

In cities that are electric car friendly, there's a problem of there not being enough plugs for the vehicles, and it is causing fights with people unplugging other vehicles to plug their own in, which is hilarious until you realize that somebody can't drive home at the end of the day, and that's in cities that are actively trying to build infrastructure and electric vehicle culture. Couple that with the fact that electric vehicles don't have a huge range before needing a recharge, it's only useful so far in very small areas. You couldn't take the thing for a long road trip because the infrastructure to recharge the cars simply aren't widespread. You'd either need to own a second, gas-powered car or take the plane to a destination that may only be a few cities away, which doesn't really do much for promoting the use of electric cars.

With ethanol and bio-diesel, it's simply a matter of production scale and the fact some engines can't really handle pure corn or organic waste fuels without a conversion. When you're talking the scale of oil production and consumption verses what a farmer can grow and provide, it's pretty much dooming that to a curious novelty than a practical solution.

This isn't to say I am pessimistic that somebody won't come up with the miracle solution that can start to replace oil in the future, but for now, it's the best resource we have for energy production and by far the most abundant. We need to keep developing oil infrastructure and extraction and refining practices to make it as efficient and clean as possible, since it simply isn't good enough to just stop with the way things are to keep throwing money at technologies that might be decades off.

Let's use a bit of a quick analogy here, if you're driving a car with a leaky oil pan and exhaust leak, but can't afford a new car to replace it, you don't just keep driving without fixing the problems of your current car because the money it would cost to fix it could be used towards a down payment for a new car.

Yes, I know that you can get a good price on a lot of good used cars and a decent down payment with the money it would cost to fix the original car, but sadly that doesn't directly apply to the issue at hand. There aren't used cars when it comes to the energy industry.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by Dervish
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Halo said
Then we will have to find an alternative to plastics. One day, we're gonna run out. It isn't produced nearly as fast as we use it, and simple mathematics tells us that means it is gonna run out someday, and we're gonna have to rely on something else someday. If anything, it tells us that our investment in alternative energy sources is even more important - we need to stop using our reserves of oil on energy, when other options exist, so that we have as much as possible to produce other things that we can get from oil.And I don't think it's pessimistic, it's realistic. Believing oil will last forever and never preparing a fallback plan for when it runs out and everything goes tits up would be ridiculously over-optimistic.


The only thing that we're in the threat of running out of is the easily obtained liquid oil, which still has a considerable amount left. But when you look at oil sands and shale, you have exponentially more oil in those states that have barely been tapped into because up until recently, there wasn't a sure way to refine it. It's kind of like an iceberg, where the part you see above the water is all the liquid oil ever, and the 90% below the water is oil sands and shale. It's a bit of a cartoonish exaggeration, but it's not too far off for all intents and purposes. We'll have a renewable energy solution in place far before we run the risk of running out of oil, assuming people keep working at it. Given how environmentally cognizant people have become in recent years, the trend is encouraging, at least.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by So Boerd
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So basically, Earth is made to make us transition. The more costly the source of oil we have to use, the more attractive feasible renewable energy becomes. Oil will effectively price itself out, so we don't need to freak out. Once nuclear/hydro/geothermal become cheaper than oil, there will be a mass transition to those sources without the need for government to funnel money to rich corporate donors--I mean, "invest in renewable energy."
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by HeySeuss
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Seriously, this stuff where you guys ad lib the role of the environmentalist (edit: or "The Tea Party") has a name.

The Straw Man Fallacy.

But here's a visual aid for people that don't click links.



Jussayin.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by Turtlicious
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Dervish said Let's use a bit of a quick analogy here, if you're driving a car with a leaky oil pan and exhaust leak, but can't afford a new car to replace it, you don't just keep driving without fixing the problems of your current car because the money it would cost to fix it could be used towards a down payment for a new car. Yes, I know that you can get a good price on a lot of good used cars and a decent down payment with the money it would cost to fix the original car, but sadly that doesn't directly apply to the issue at hand. There aren't used cars when it comes to the energy industry.


Isn't it a sunk cost fallacy to keep spending money on a broken thing you plan to replace, because you've already spent money on it?
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by So Boerd
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That is true, however our purpose in so adding more money to oil is to alleviate damaging environmental and economic effects. We are spending money to get more money and reduce the need to ship oil from halfway across the world.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by The Nexerus
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Turtlicious said
Isn't it a sunk cost fallacy to keep spending money on a broken thing you plan to replace, because you've already spent money on it?


Planning on inventing a new medicine to delay the end result of a terminal illness is not a good reason to stop taking the medicine that's already keeping you alive, even if it has a bad after taste.

This isn't a "selling your old car" kind of problem. You can't just get a rental for a few days while you're replacing the entire world's transportation, energy and manufacturing infrastructure. Demand is constantly increasing, too, in spite of alternative energy proposals.

The point is cemented further when we consider that, in this case, we don't know what the replacement for our metaphorical medicine will even be, or even if there's anything that can possibly replace it at all. In all likelihood, we will always be using petroleum to some extent.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by mdk
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Remember this isn't an issue of how 'we should be spending our money.' This is an issue of telling other people how to spend THEIR money. I think it's criminal to force everyone to buy iPad 1 while iPad 3 is already in development. The market will adopt when the technology is ready. Always has.
Hidden 11 yrs ago Post by Turtlicious
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A.) I just said I haven't really studied on the subject to give a strong opinion.

B.) I didn't use the car analogy

C.) All I was saying is that it was a poor analogy, outside of the conversation at hand. Like, no you should not spend money to fix your car if you can save that money to buy a new one. You should drive that car until it breaks then go on the bus, don't keep spending money on a thing because you have it.
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