[OOC] World in Revolution: 1861

[salamimike]

The Nexerus said
Any change to the Second Amendment would inevitably make it more restrictive.

I can see why you might want it more specific than "Everyone ever should have a gun"

[The Nexerus]

solamelike said
I can see why you might want it more specific than "Everyone ever should have a gun"

Fortunately, it doesn't say "everyone ever should have a gun", otherwise I'd agree that it should be changed.

[Pepperm1nts]

Pasta Sentient said
The argument is...if they take our guns away what power do we have to stop them from doing what they want. It hearkens back to the American thought process found in the Declaration of Independence...

"How can I defend myself against a drone if I don't have my .22???"

[Byrd Man]

Pepperm1nts said
"How can I defend myself against a drone if I don't have my .22???"

Don't forget about that heat-seeking Stinger missile... used for hunting purposes, of course.

[Pasta Sentient]

Pepperm1nts said
"How can I defend myself against a drone if I don't have my .22???"

:P

This is somewhat true, but nonetheless that's why there is the argument over citizens being allowed to have military grade weapons. Personally..I think that if you are part of an organized militia that has proper training/background checks..etc. You should be allowed to carry whatever you want.

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Also..if the USA Government ever did something truly tyrannical..I would not be surprised to see a lot of deserters/turncoats in our military. The American military very strongly identifies with the rights of the people and constitution. A helluva lot more than Congress.

[Pepperm1nts]

Byrd Man said
Don't forget about that heat-seeking Stinger missile... used for hunting purposes, of course.

You never know when those deer will start to cruise at 30,000ft

[salamimike]

Byrd Man said
Guns are ingrained in the US culture, for better or worse. The Second Amendment, like the Third one that prohibited soldier quartering in US, was done to prevent the UK from coming back to finish the US off. The idea of a militia and citizen soldiers is one that a lot of Americans strongly identify with. I think a lot of citizens, and maybe even the founders, take the Second Amendment as the citizen's check on the government. A government is less likely to force a heavily armed citizenry into doing something they view as being tyrannical.

But The UK isn't planning on taking you back anymore.
And surely you can also see how ridiculous the argument "I have a gun so we don't get another hitler!" is.
If the government did turn around and start banning ALL guns, who would actually fight a revolution? Would you put your family in danger just for your guns? And the government has more guns then you and bigger ones. When the armoured truck roles down the street, good look with your AR.

I would like to clarify I am playing devils advocate at this point, I love guns and own some myself. But I enjoy expanding on my own knowledge by learning from others and seeing the other viewpoint.

[salamimike]

The Nexerus said
Fortunately, it doesn't say "everyone ever should have a gun", otherwise I'd agree that it should be changed.

It pretty much says all American citizens can have guns though right?

[Byrd Man]

solamelike said
But The UK isn't planning on taking you back anymore.And surely you can also see how ridiculous the argument "I have a gun so we don't get another hitler!" is.If the government did turn around and start banning ALL guns, who would actually fight a revolution? Would you put your family in danger just for your guns? And the government has more guns then you and bigger ones. When the armoured truck roles down the street, good look with your AR.I would like to clarify I am playing devils advocate at this point, I love guns and own some myself. But I enjoy expanding on my own knowledge by learning from others and seeing the other viewpoint.

Not saying I agree with it, just telling you the reasons and history behind it.

[salamimike]

Byrd Man said
Not saying I agree with it, just telling you the reasons and history behind it.

I know and as I say I am not saying banning all guns, or editing the constitution needs to happen. Im just happily debating among peers points of interest.

[The Nexerus]

solamelike said
It pretty much says all American citizens can have guns though right?

There is a world of difference between 'can' and 'must', or 'should'. The Second Amendment is a constitutional assurance of the right to bear arms, not a law prescribing that everyone has to bear arms.

[Pepperm1nts]

solamelike said
It pretty much says all American citizens can have guns though right?

No. It says they all have the right to have one. Not that they should.

Either way, the constitution, and specifically that part, was written at a time when we faced a direct threat from the English. It was necessary to have civilian militias, in the event that they would try to take over again. But it's not necessary anymore.

Still, people keep pointing to the constitution as if it's a holy book of some kind, to justify why they have a dozen assault rifles under their bed. That or they bring up the "we gots to be ready for tyranical gubmnint!". As you said though, an assault rifle isn't going to help you against an armored truck. That's why I made the drone joke. If the government wanted to turn on the people, no amount of ARs is going to stop them. So arguing that it would is just plain silly to me.

[Pasta Sentient]

solamelike said
It pretty much says all American citizens can have guns though right?

"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

That's what it says.

Also the quality thing is very true, but as I said in my previous post...A good portion of our soldiers would most likely side with the people. Considering also what is happening in Iraq/Afghanistan...I see it being difficult for the USA government to crack down on the people. Considering also how foolish it would be for the government to do somethign to incite the American people to rebel...yeah America would be in the crapper.

Also, at least in recent years I know there have been more fears about an attack on America soil....So make of that what you will.

[salamimike]

The Nexerus said
There is a world of difference between 'can' and 'must', or 'should'. The Second Amendment is a constitutional assurance of the right to bear arms, not a law prescribing that everyone bear arms.

So 'everyone' is allowed a gun?

[Byrd Man]

Honestly, I'm in favor of the Second Amendment, but there should be restrictions. Tighter background checks, including mental and criminal history checks on anyone who wants any gun, and no military-grade hardware for sale obviously. I'm fine with someone owning a fully automatic weapon. If you look at statistics of gun violence over the years, it's gone down in the US. Yes, the school shootings and other mass shootings are tragedies but they are a tiny percentage, less than 1%, of all gun deaths.

[Byrd Man]

solamelike said
So 'everyone' is allowed a gun?

Not if you're a convicted felon

[The Nexerus]

solamelike said
So 'everyone' is allowed a gun?

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed".

[AegonVI]

la la la la la avoiding awkward conversation about politics that could flare up at any moment la la la la la la la la la la la doo dee doo dee doo doo la la la

[Pepperm1nts]

Byrd Man said
Honestly, I'm in favor of the Second Amendment, but there should be restrictions. Tighter background checks, including mental and criminal history checks on anyone who wants any gun, and no military-grade hardware for sale obviously. I'm fine with someone owning a fully automatic weapon. If you look at statistics of gun violence over the years, it's gone down in the US. Yes, the school shootings and other mass shootings are tragedies but they are a tiny percentage, less than 1%, of all gun deaths.

This is pretty much my stance, too.

[Pasta Sentient]

Byrd Man said
Honestly, I'm in favor of the Second Amendment, but there should be restrictions. Tighter background checks, including mental and criminal history checks on anyone who wants any gun, and no military-grade hardware for sale obviously. I'm fine with someone owning a fully automatic weapon. If you look at statistics of gun violence over the years, it's gone down in the US. Yes, the school shootings and other mass shootings are tragedies but they are a tiny percentage, less than 1%, of all gun deaths.

I agree with all your points except the mental history check. Not because I think it in of itself would be bad, but because that then gives the Government more leeway to look into your medical history. Also allows for future discrimination of certain rights to people because of certain issues.