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Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Spiritblitz
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<Snipped quote by Spiritblitz>

Catapult? Cannon? Slingshot?


*snaps awake* Ah! Whoops!

<Snipped quote by Heroic>

Hm.

<Snipped quote by Spiritblitz>

Quickly?


Yes. For why I am here. I will be gone and may be needing of assistance! Mostly for killing, but other is saving!
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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@PentagonWhite

I make fewer assumptions than you would believe, and of those I do make, I have several backup scenarios and alternative realities that I take into account. I have nothing against your learning; however, ask what you would like to know instead of forming riddles for us to guess.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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<Snipped quote by Legend>

That's classified.

<Snipped quote by PentagonWhite>

This is his usual self, yes. And nothing that he would be aware of, or particularly your fault.


What is not classified?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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<Snipped quote by Heroic>

*snaps awake* Ah! Whoops!

<Snipped quote by Legend>

Yes. For why I am here. I will be gone and may be needing of assistance! Mostly for killing, but other is saving!


Oh?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Techspert
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*is softly asleep*


*Continues to snore*
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Spiritblitz
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<Snipped quote by Spiritblitz>

Oh?


Yes. Grim is going to die once and for all.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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Yes. Grim is going to die once and for all.


Lovely. How will this be done?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Spiritblitz
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Lovely. How will this be done?


I have a plan! and it going well.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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I have a plan! and it going well.


What is the plan?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Spiritblitz
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What is the plan?


The plan? Well, I must keep all of those who are blood related, or have marital ties to my family, away from Grim, cause he will be able to survive through them. And fight him. Neon will have to die so that way Grim can be fought. We also need to keep him tangible. Else we are just hitting air.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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<Snipped quote by Legend>

The plan? Well, I must keep all of those who are blood related, or have marital ties to my family, away from Grim, cause he will be able to survive through them. And fight him. Neon will have to die so that way Grim can be fought. We also need to keep him tangible. Else we are just hitting air.


How do you plan to do that?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Spiritblitz
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How do you plan to do that?


That is why I am seeking help. Maybe one of you are able to fight ghosts or souls....
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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That is why I am seeking help. Maybe one of you are able to fight ghosts or souls....


Techi would be more effective at that than I.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by PentagonWhite
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@Legend @Spiritblitz

Impressive, then, that you were entirely wrong about my intentions, methods, or state of mind. I'd appreciate you don't tell me how to do my learning. In return, I won't tell you how to live your life either: I am asking exactly what I want to know, and nothing else. I didn't think a more ambulatory approach was so difficult to grasp. Now, what's this about ghosts? Who's being killed? I feel this is more interesting than taking shots into the dark for our laconic, anti-social friend here. Does it have to do with the violence outside?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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@Legend @Spiritblitz

Impressive, then, that you were entirely wrong about my intentions, methods, or state of mind. I'd appreciate you don't tell me how to do my learning. In return, I won't tell you how to live your life either: I am asking exactly what I want to know, and nothing else. I didn't think a more ambulatory approach was so difficult to grasp. Now, what's this about ghosts? Who's being killed? I feel this is more interesting than taking shots into the dark for our laconic, anti-social friend here. Does it have to do with the violence outside?


Could you quote me where I assumed any of that without offering the reasonable alternatives? If you refuse to learn new methods of understanding, your progress as an intellectual will be hindered. I offer a plethora of information, but you cannot pick and choose pieces to censor and pieces to hear. Unless, perchance, you have an objective set of rules to regulate the information I release.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by PentagonWhite
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@Legend

*I touch the side of my head, in a gesture more for show than anything else, and close my eyes for a second. The smile has faded somewhat, though it still beams.*

To begin: you say that I cannot pick and choose pieces of information to censor, when I very clearly said, and I quote 'your little spiel there was exactly the sort of thing I wanted, because I wanted to hear whatever you have to say'. There is a divide, at least in the culture of the Hierophany, between asking someone to stop transgressing the other's cultural norms, and censoring, or picking and choosing, pieces of information.

To follow, then, on the matter of assumptions. I have recorded the entire conversation. You've just accused me of refusing to learn new methods of understanding, when instead I have decided not to employ them. You are, at best, implying that I am ignorant of things that instead I am choosing to avoid. I have a different methodology than you would recommend, apparently, not necessarily one that is incomplete. I want to make the caveat, before I continue, that you may very well be right, but I cannot see how you'd make accurate predictions from our brief interaction here.

You couched your response to the trolley problem in the subjunctive, so obviously that shields you from culpability since it's more than possible that my culture has led me to read different meaning into certain words than others, that I think differently. My question on this matter would be, why say things like:

*My voice shifts, to a recording of Data speaking. My mouth simply hangs open a hair as the sound proceeds*

"If, hypothetically speaking, I were discussing the very scenario of a train approaching individuals on tracks in order to gauge the "moral development" of another creature I had not interacted with yet, I would consider another scenario with fewer loose ends, greater detail, and more resulting information instead of assuming ethical superiority or higher understanding"

"If I only desired to understand whether he valued individuals or groups to a greater extent, a "the good of the many outweigh the good of the few" ideology, I would perhaps ask directly instead of assuming he reasons on such an elementary level that all factors of a situation can be reduced to a binary decision with hazy conclusions, fit more for a thought experiment performed by one first being exposed to the concept of the psychology of intelligent beings. And I would also suggest others he speaks to do the same—that is, hypothetically of course."

*The recording ends, and I begin speaking normally once more*

...this? You'll notice that none of these are answers to the trolley problem as it is posed. I can't find a reason for these answers unless you think that I am likely to fall into one of these categories, into which I am certain I most resolutely do not. Whether or not you offered alternatives is of secondary relevance: I understood from your comments you have taken certain likelihood of meaning from the evidence you've seen, a meaning my culture has conditioned me to consider offensive and I believe is incorrect.

Perhaps most importantly, and I'll reiterate, you're assuming I'm not asking what I want to know. I want to gather data, in general rather than in particular. That's what I want to know, and despite all of this...

*I wave my hand in the air loosely, as though to indicate the tangent the conversation has taken.*

...I think I'm succeeding quite well. Ah, but perhaps we've just gotten off on the wrong foot. I'm sure I've caused you just as much unintentional offense, and for that I apologize. Would you like to drop the subject? It might be more expedient, for both our interests.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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@Legend

*I touch the side of my head, in a gesture more for show than anything else, and close my eyes for a second. The smile has faded somewhat, though it still beams.*

To begin: you say that I cannot pick and choose pieces of information to censor, when I very clearly said, and I quote 'your little spiel there was exactly the sort of thing I wanted, because I wanted to hear whatever you have to say'. There is a divide, at least in the culture of the Hierophany, between asking someone to stop transgressing the other's cultural norms, and censoring, or picking and choosing, pieces of information.

To follow, then, on the matter of assumptions. I have recorded the entire conversation. You've just accused me of refusing to learn new methods of understanding, when instead I have decided not to employ them. You are, at best, implying that I am ignorant of things that instead I am choosing to avoid. I have a different methodology than you would recommend, apparently, not necessarily one that is incomplete. I want to make the caveat, before I continue, that you may very well be right, but I cannot see how you'd make accurate predictions from our brief interaction here.

You couched your response to the trolley problem in the subjunctive, so obviously that shields you from culpability since it's more than possible that my culture has led me to read different meaning into certain words than others, that I think differently. My question on this matter would be, why say things like:

*My voice shifts, to a recording of Data speaking. My mouth simply hangs open a hair as the sound proceeds*

"If, hypothetically speaking, I were discussing the very scenario of a train approaching individuals on tracks in order to gauge the "moral development" of another creature I had not interacted with yet, I would consider another scenario with fewer loose ends, greater detail, and more resulting information instead of assuming ethical superiority or higher understanding"

"If I only desired to understand whether he valued individuals or groups to a greater extent, a "the good of the many outweigh the good of the few" ideology, I would perhaps ask directly instead of assuming he reasons on such an elementary level that all factors of a situation can be reduced to a binary decision with hazy conclusions, fit more for a thought experiment performed by one first being exposed to the concept of the psychology of intelligent beings. And I would also suggest others he speaks to do the same—that is, hypothetically of course."

*The recording ends, and I begin speaking normally once more*

...this? You'll notice that none of these are answers to the trolley problem as it is posed. I can't find a reason for these answers unless you think that I am likely to fall into one of these categories, into which I am certain I most resolutely do not. Whether or not you offered alternatives is of secondary relevance: I understood from your comments you have taken certain likelihood of meaning from the evidence you've seen, a meaning my culture has conditioned me to consider offensive and I believe is incorrect.

Perhaps most importantly, and I'll reiterate, you're assuming I'm not asking what I want to know. I want to gather data, in general rather than in particular. That's what I want to know, and despite all of this...

*I wave my hand in the air loosely, as though to indicate the tangent the conversation has taken.*

...I think I'm succeeding quite well. Ah, but perhaps we've just gotten off on the wrong foot. I'm sure I've caused you just as much unintentional offense, and for that I apologize. Would you like to drop the subject? It might be more expedient, for both our interests.


There are no cultural norms between us, and in fact, you would be considered the alien. If there was a particular culture of this land, you would be expected to conform, not the opposite. However, it is easier if I state whatever it is that I wish instead of being forced to filter it through your culture.

You refuse to learn new methods of understanding because you have already chosen to instruct me to leave you to your own devices concerning learning. That was not all the information regarding questioning that I had to give, yet you prefer whatever system you had in place. Even if you chose to never use it again, when the one you desire information from offers you a process to extract the greatest amount of information, I highly suggest you heed that advice. As for predictions, my predictions are accurate because I have experienced much, have learned patterns, and understand how to reduce conclusions to their logical components. There are only so many causes that arrive at a particular conclusion.

A failure to learn from the experience of others leads to the stagnant growth of knowledge and the development of ignorance. I do not accuse you of doing so, but I do recommend drastically changing your approach. I proposed broad categories that extend beyond where you consider them to extend. I know of the test you utilized and I criticized your methodology rather than your goals, and whether you consider that offensive, complimentary, or even totally neutral does not affect me, nor do I take it into consideration; my only concern is answering your questions.

You are succeeding in the sense that I am offering you a plethora of information. However, the design of your data mining is inefficient and provides irrelevant or even inaccurate information when extrapolated beyond the specific situation presented. You could obtain significantly more information of higher value had you presented the situation in a different light or asked me what you would like to know directly. I am not insulted, offended, or in any other way negatively affected by your choices. I would, however, like to help you.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by PentagonWhite
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@Legend

I'm glad we're on the same page, then. I don't want to become adversarial, I'll just need to adjust my expectations and actions. Fundamentally, on this point, I disagree with you. I am confident I understand what methods you're trying to teach me, and am judging that they are less useful to my purposes, purposes you don't know as well as I do, than the cadre of methodology I'm using, of whose benefits I understand the merits of better than you only insofar as they are methods designed by me to achieve goals I have set for myself. I don't think I am failing to learn from your methodology, I don't think that my actions will lead to ignorance, I do not think that I could have gained more value from another line of questioning, and I have absolutely no interest in spending limited time trying to demonstrate that here beyond what has already transpired. All in all, my style has worked perfectly, in fact!

*The broad, toothy smile returns, entirely genuine.*

Now, will you countenance another question chosen by me, or are we well past that point in our cooperation?
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by Legend
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@Legend

I'm glad we're on the same page, then. I don't want to become adversarial, I'll just need to adjust my expectations and actions. Fundamentally, on this point, I disagree with you. I am confident I understand what methods you're trying to teach me, and am judging that they are less useful to my purposes, purposes you don't know as well as I do, than the cadre of methodology I'm using, of whose benefits I understand the merits of better than you only insofar as they are methods designed by me to achieve goals I have set for myself. I don't think I am failing to learn from your methodology, I don't think that my actions will lead to ignorance, I do not think that I could have gained more value from another line of questioning, and I have absolutely no interest in spending limited time trying to demonstrate that here beyond what has already transpired. All in all, my style has worked perfectly, in fact!

*The broad, toothy smile returns, entirely genuine.*

Now, will you countenance another question chosen by me, or are we well past that point in our cooperation?


*Half smiles*
Ask anything you will; I am open to you to every extent. Nothing will be hidden from your eyes or ears.
Hidden 8 yrs ago Post by PentagonWhite
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@Legend

What's your favorite color?
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