[OOC] Massive Multiversal Crossover

[Earnest Evans]

Exact quote: "By slaying countless monsters, the sword has taken on magical properties, and can now harm magical beings that can't be hurt by mundane weapons". It isn't explicitly negating any magical anything.

@Raineh Daze

This is semantics. According to @IncredibleBee's interpretation of Guts, the Dragonslayer harms magical things. Interpreting that quote as "Dragonslayer can harm magical things only if they can't be hit by mundane weapons" is really reaching. Beyond that, something like the Dragonslayer would most likely sunder a pickaxe like the one this nameless character has, regardless of whether it's got an enchantment or not.

If it's enchanted to be unbreakable by mundane weapons, then logically the "anti-anti-mundane" effect should take effect.

[IncredibleBee]

Exact quote: "By slaying countless monsters, the sword has taken on magical properties, and can now harm magical beings that can't be hurt by mundane weapons". It isn't explicitly negating any magical anything.

@Raineh Daze

That was clearly a fancy way of saying "The sword can hurt magic stuff now." Mundane, nonmagical weapons can't typically hurt ethereal spirits or cut through mana; the Dragonslayer can do and has done both.

[Raineh Daze]

<Snipped quote by Raineh Daze>

This is semantics. According to @IncredibleBee's interpretation of Guts, the Dragonslayer harms magical things. Interpreting that quote as "Dragonslayer can harm magical things only if they can't be hit by mundane weapons" and, beyond that, something like the Dragonslayer would sunder a pickaxe like the one this nameless character has, regardless of whether it's got an enchantment or not.

If it's enchanted to be unbreakable by mundane weapons, then logically the "anti-anti-mundane" effect should take effect.

@Earnest Evans

<Snipped quote by Raineh Daze>

That was clearly a fancy way of saying "The sword can hurt magic stuff now." Mundane, nonmagical weapons can't typically hurt ethereal spirits or cut through mana; the Dragonslayer can do and has done both.

@IncredibleBee

That's not clear at all. It goes beyond the realm of "Well, this can hurt things that would be immune to a plain steel sword" to a conclusion that only makes sense with an unstated assumption of Berserk cosmology, how magic functions interacting with said cosmology, and further implications when tossing random magical effects at people.

It's a bit of a jump from being able to cut through something that would ignore a mundane weapon to being able to negate magic spells and cut through enchantments. Most cases, the enchantment's an intrinsic part of the item; if you can't cut the item anyway (because it's supposed to be too tough for that), the enchantment making it tough isn't going to go.

[IncredibleBee]

@IncredibleBee: I have actually explicitly nerfed Dlanor so that her weapon does not work in that way. I did not see Cinder Fall being able to destroy anything and if that is the case then I must have misread. Kiba's abilities were not listed as he has described recently him and that is one of the problems I have with his current playing, Misaka's gun is still capable of being defended against, and Kakine still has limitations that are the only reason I accepted him.

My issues with how you are playing the Dragonslayer are that you seem to believe it instantly destroys any magic at all, and that the explanation you have used to justify this does not make sense. Not that it can harm or deflect magic.

If it really comes down to it, fine, I'll edit what she said or something.

@Earnest Evans: If that's the case I must have missed it, or misunderstood the extent it was meant to fill, and I apologize. However having spoken with people who read Berserk it does not appear that it goes to this level in canon.

@VitaVitaAR

Slips of the tongue everywhere. I meant to say Cinder can create anything, but the point still stands.

Anyways, my point is that the Dragonslayer can cut through magic stuff. I have provided several examples of it doing specifically this, including harming one particularly power being made of pure magic. It doesn't just turn magic in the area off, if that's what you're thinking. It will, however, cleave right through it.

Also I'm not sure a simple edit will solve this, if firegirl's personality is any indicator. It's probably best to restart the encounter, but with a different NPC. A polite, less magic-y one.

[IncredibleBee]

<Snipped quote by Earnest Evans>

<Snipped quote by IncredibleBee>

That's not clear at all. It goes beyond the realm of "Well, this can hurt things that would be immune to a plain steel sword" to a conclusion that only makes sense with an unstated assumption of Berserk cosmology, how magic functions interacting with said cosmology, and further implications when tossing random magical effects at people.

It's a bit of a jump from being able to cut through something that would ignore a mundane weapon to being able to negate magic spells and cut through enchantments.

@Raineh Daze

It's actually rather simple inference. Ganishka's projection during the dock fight right before the boat was made of magic. Guts hurt that by stabbing it with the Dragonslayer. Now, spells and enchantments are also made of magic. Therefore, cutting it with the Dragonslayer will produce the same effect.

[Earnest Evans]

Also I'm not sure a simple edit will solve this, if firegirl's personality is any indicator. It's probably best to restart the encounter, but with a different NPC. A polite, less magic-y one.

@IncredibleBee

Or a strong melee fighter capable of getting on common ground with Guts. Guts will probably come around if the person talking to him can evoke fond memories. Like someone based off his comrade Griffith, for example.

[Raineh Daze]

<Snipped quote by Raineh Daze>

It's actually rather simple inference. Ganishka's projection during the dock fight right before the boat was made of magic. Guts hurt that by stabbing it with the Dragonslayer. Now, spells and enchantments are also made of magic. Therefore, cutting it with the Dragonslayer will produce the same effect.

@IncredibleBee

There's actually one thing that's the problem, though, from the example I've been thinking about: what if something IS magical, but the magical effect is simply making it physically more durable? I've not been proposing that magic makes something inherently undamageable. More a 'is it ignoring the magic'.

I think we've been arguing over two separate points.

<Snipped quote by IncredibleBee>

Or a strong melee fighter capable of getting on common ground with Guts. Guts will probably come around if the person talking to him can evoke fond memories. Like someone based off his comrade Griffith, for example.

@Earnest Evans

Someone like Griffith is the opposite of what we need.

[Flamelord]

Misaka has a gun that can't miss and an automatic material rifle,

@IncredibleBee

As a slight correction, Misaka's gun can miss, it just has onboard software that lets it aim itself rather than relying on the user. For what it matters.

[Raineh Daze]

Strangest question is why they'd need the gun to correct for them by experiment 10032.

[Flamelord]

Strangest question is why they'd need the gun to correct for them by experiment 10032.

@Raineh Daze

*Shrugs* I didn't make the gun. I'm assuming they were busy learning to deal with the kickback of an automatic anti-material rifle.

Oh, right, the auto aim feature is for the plebs who buy the gun but don't have a linked thousand person hive mind :p

[VitaVitaAR]

I'll try and work out a totally different NPC, then. I'd like to use this one for something else but consider her as having not shown up yet.

I don't completely agree with how you've had the Dragonslayer's capabilities working from what people have told me, but I'm tired of arguing and would rather things keep going smoothly instead rather then taking up more space with this.

[IncredibleBee]

<Snipped quote by IncredibleBee>

There's actually one thing that's the problem, though, from the example I've been thinking about: what if something IS magical, but the magical effect is simply making it physically more durable? I've not been proposing that magic makes something inherently undamageable. More a 'is it ignoring the magic'.

I think we've been arguing over two separate points.

@Raineh Daze

Well in that case the increased physical endurance is a side effect of the magic. Since the Dragonslayer cuts through magical stuff, the item would be relying solely on its own physical durability, and if that weapon is a common weapon made of common materials, it wouldn't hold out for more than one hit.

[FujiwaraPhoenix]

<Snipped quote by Raineh Daze>

*Shrugs* I didn't make the gun I'm assuming they were busy learning to deal with the kickback of an automatic anti-material rifle.

Oh, right, the auto aim feature is for the plebs who buy the gun but don't have a linked thousand person hive mind :p

@Flamelord

Technically still 20001 because of the fact that all the minds are linked in the first place. Just sayin'.

>changing topics let's do this

[Raineh Daze]

<Snipped quote by Raineh Daze>

Well in that case the increased physical endurance is a side effect of the magic. Since the Dragonslayer cuts through magical stuff, the item would be relying solely on its own physical durability, and if that weapon is a common weapon made of common materials, it wouldn't hold out for more than one hit.

@IncredibleBee

But whilst it can simultaneously cut two separate things, the different parts would be supporting one another--you can't cut the magic unless you can cut the physical, and you can't cut the physical unless you can cut the magic. If the magic simply amplifies the physical effects, you can't cut either, and you'd get a stalemate.

<Snipped quote by Flamelord>

Technically still 20001 because of the fact that all the minds are linked in the first place. Just sayin'.

>changing topics let's do this

@PKMNB0Y

I believe you've got 10031 too many minds there.

[Flamelord]

<Snipped quote by Flamelord>

Technically still 20001 because of the fact that all the minds are linked in the first place. Just sayin'.

>changing topics let's do this

@PKMNB0Y

I don't think the dead Sisters are still a part of the Network. At least, as per my understanding of how it works.

[IncredibleBee]

<Snipped quote by IncredibleBee>

But whilst it can simultaneously cut two separate things, the different parts would be supporting one another--you can't cut the magic unless you can cut the physical, and you can't cut the physical unless you can cut the magic. If the magic simply amplifies the physical effects, you can't cut either, and you'd get a stalemate.

@Raineh Daze

If the antimagic effect is engaged by cutting stuff, then the Dragonslayer is attacking both the magic and the physical at the same time. Thus, both items collapse simultaneously. It's like a door that's opened by two button presses at the same time.

[FujiwaraPhoenix]

<Snipped quote by IncredibleBee>

But whilst it can simultaneously cut two separate things, the different parts would be supporting one another--you can't cut the magic unless you can cut the physical, and you can't cut the physical unless you can cut the magic. If the magic simply amplifies the physical effects, you can't cut either, and you'd get a stalemate.

<Snipped quote by PKMNB0Y>

I believe you've got 10031 too many minds there.

@Raineh Daze

Nope, not quite. It's New Testament stuff, but in short the dead Clones still exist. Just not in a corporeal form, though.

[Flamelord]

<Snipped quote by Raineh Daze>

Nope, not quite. It's New Testament stuff, but in short the dead Clones still exist. Just not in a corporeal form, though.

@PKMNB0Y

Ah, I see. Though actually you were ~19,000 off since I only said a thousand in the first place ;p

[VitaVitaAR]

The last word I'll say on the matter of the Dragonslayer is to get its limitations.

[IncredibleBee]

The last word I'll say on the matter of the Dragonslayer is to get its limitations.

@VitaVitaAR

It's restricted to melee range.