[OOC] Heroes of Beacon - the Next Chapter

[KabenSaal]

Anything that costs money is not a right, it is a commodity. I don't know what stats you've been looking at, but the economies of European countries right now are downright awful. Only Germany and Britain are even industrial nations anymore. Just look how well socialized medicine is working for Greece at the moment.

The military in the US employs millions of people. Cut it off, and you've got even more people stuffed into a poor job market. Plus, there's the whole war going on right now against an extremist group that wants to kill us for our basic ideals of freedom.

Kaben, I suppose you are right--fighting to break free from a position beneath the foot of tyrannical colonial rule involved murder, and taking away land and resources from a cross-country British empire to establish an independent nation was theft. If you're going to sling insults and generalizations rather than actually contribute to a debate, then you may be silent.

@Lugubrious

I actually was referring to the people that where already there at the time. And the Pilgrim Fathers left England because it wasn't catholic enough for them. And when they got there and saw that people where already present, they killed them and stole their stuff.

[HereComesTheSnow]

That was the colony of Plymouth Rock.

Not the country of the United States of America. That happened over a century and a half later.

If you're gonna cite the Native Americans, at least use the Trail of Tears. That was a genuine dick move on Old Hickory's part.

[Lucius Cypher]

Also, killing native populations to take their stuff and land is a past time of all nations (Relatively speaking). The USA is just one of the most recent examples, but hardly the first nor the most well practiced. Last I checked, they haven't really established any colonies, though I don't know what's going on in Peru.

[Lugubrious]

<Snipped quote by Lugubrious>

I actually was referring to the people that where already there at the time. And the Pilgrim Fathers left England because it wasn't catholic enough for them. And when they got there and saw that people where already present, they killed them and stole their stuff.

@KabenSaal

The Pilgrims were Protestant, fleeing Catholicism and Anglicanism (English Catholicism). They weren't the only group either, not even the only English group. Just the most well known one. France and Spain also got in on the New World in force. It would be a lie to deny that atrocities took place against American Indians, but the pilgrims were hardly genocidal. More natives died from accidentally transferred diseases than bayonets or buckshot, and many English settlements lived in peace and separation from the natives. To say that the Pilgrims were Catholic and murderers and thieves is, like most generalizations, inaccurate and inapplicable to the whole.

Those who loath American values and attitudes are quick to use them, however.

[HereComesTheSnow]

We had the Philippines and Guam IIRC for a while.

Though that was a different breed of colonialism.

[Ookawa]

Anything that costs money is not a right, it is a commodity. I don't know what stats you've been looking at, but the economies of European countries right now are downright awful. Only Germany and Britain are even industrial nations anymore. Just look how well socialized medicine is working for Greece at the moment.

The military in the US employs millions of people. Cut it off, and you've got even more people stuffed into a poor job market. Plus, there's the whole war going on right now against an extremist group that wants to kill us for our basic ideals of freedom.

@Lugubrious

1. I can say for certain that I have more knowledge than you about this topic, so you do have to believe me. The European countries are doing way better economically than the US. The US loses as much money per day as Germany is in debt. And Greece is like 250 billion in debt. That's basically peanuts. And when people are dying because they cannot afford a doctor this is absolutely unacceptable and violates the first human right. "The dignity of a human being must be preserved" And such a thing is just so backwards. We don't live in the fucking 19th century anymore.
And I also think you have a wrong image of health care in Europe. It is not "free" per se. A fixed amount is payed by the Employer and another fixed amount is deducted from your wage to pay to your insurance company, which is only slightly subsidized.

2. To military spending:
I think these two graphics picture perfectly what is wrong with the US military spending.



Military spending of the US vs the rest of the world (washington post)

[Ookawa]

Kaben, I suppose you are right--fighting to break free from a position beneath the foot of tyrannical colonial rule involved murder, and taking away land and resources from a cross-country British empire to establish an independent nation was theft. If you're going to sling insults and generalizations rather than actually contribute to a debate, then you may be silent.

@Lugubrious

http://spectator.org/articles/38933/americas-unjust-revolution-what-british-tyranny

Why didn't Canada rebel, then?
Also... Canada resolved the issues with Britain peacefully.

[KabenSaal]

So, basically, history is what you make of it, and everyone is, or has the potential to be a lying asshole for something that happened so long ago.

Got it.

[Lucius Cypher]

That's a fairly big generalization of what exactly the money in "Military" goes towards. it's not all guns and bullets ya know. Hell, Intentional Affairs, Government, Science, Labor, transportation, and Food & Agriculture are things that have military involvement, directly or indirectly. Tongue-in-cheek, whatever the hell is going on in the Middle East is International Affairs involving our military, as is various medical sciences trying to figure out how to get more people into the military despite illness and injuries, or how to deal with new injures and illnesses we seem to be getting out soldiers into.

[Lugubrious]

<Snipped quote by Lugubrious>

1. I can say for certain that I have more knowledge than you about this topic, so you do have to believe me. The European countries are doing way better economically than the US. The US loses as much money per day as Germany is in debt. And Greece is like 250 billion in debt. That's basically peanuts. And when people are dying because they cannot afford a doctor this is absolutely unacceptable and violates the first human right. "The dignity of a human being must be preserved" And such a thing is just so backwards. We don't live in the fucking 19th century anymore.
And I also think you have a wrong image of health care in Europe. It is not "free" per se. A fixed amount is payed by the Employer and another fixed amount is deducted from your wage to pay to your insurance company, which is only slightly subsidized.

2. To military spending:
I think these two graphics picture perfectly what is wrong with the US military spending.



Military spending of the US vs the rest of the world (washington post)

@PyroDash888

You're telling me that because you apparently know more than I already, after barely any debate, that I must believe you without sources? I must confess, I've never seen the list of 'human rights' outlined anywhere other than the US Constitution. The one you quoted intrigues me. I suppose 'dignity' means 'health'? People are starting to die in Australia, where socialized medicine has been the norm for a while. So few people are paying into the system, and so many are riding on it, that the government has no money to pay for all the health care and benefits are getting slashed. This information I received in part from a fellow guild member, Caits, an Australian citizen. Please, no need for crass language.

I don't remember saying 'free' health care. I know it's not free, because it costs money. That money is paid via taxes, by employers and employees alike, and in some European countries up to 50% of income is taken in taxes, perhaps more. The government then covers the residents.

The chart you've cited is 'proposed', and for two years ago. The current administration hasn't passed a budget in years, just continuing resolutions, and here's the current one, from an official site:


That's more on both health care and pensions than defense in the US.

[Lucius Cypher]

So, basically, history is what you make of it, and everyone is, or has the potential to be a lying asshole for something that happened so long ago.

Got it.

@KabenSaal

Perspective and Perception Kaben. Where you see things and how you see can really twist what is and isn't. The fact that there's no universal opinion is why wars are fought ya know? Or as an old Russian joke goes: "They lied to us about communism, but they were telling us the truth about capitalism."

[KabenSaal]

Well, the rules where certainly right. Excessive off topic stuff was met with unhappy frowns all around.

[Ookawa]

So, basically, history is what you make of it, and everyone is, or has the potential to be a lying asshole for something that happened so long ago.

Got it.

@KabenSaal

History is made by the victors. Just look at Germany. Because we lost, nobody remembers the civilians who were brutally slaughtered by the British and US bombers in devastating fires and hails of bombs as well as the strafing runs on civilians, which are still denied to have happened by the Americans.
Then the people who wanted to return home were killed just because they were Germans in the Territories of former Prussia and Sudetenland as well as the Elsass and Lothringen. Nobody will thinks of them and nobody will, because they were casualties of the losing side. Or the victims of the first two atomic bombs ever dropped on humans.

[Lugubrious]

So, basically, history is what you make of it, and everyone is, or has the potential to be a lying asshole for something that happened so long ago.

Got it.

@KabenSaal

This statement in no way addresses or reflects any comments made by either Lucius or me. You're not taking this seriously.

Well, the rules where certainly right. Excessive off topic stuff was met with unhappy frowns all around.

@KabenSaal

Heh, I did warn you.

I am aware of part of what the USA has done, @Pyrodash888, and I suspect I won't ever stop learning new and depressing things. Though I do defend it, I am not blind to its faults and mistakes. History may be written by the victors, but lesser heard versions are also written by the losers, and I will read them both if I can.

In conclusion...

I am happy to call this entire ordeal quits. The United States is hardly a perfect country, with a dubious past at times, but what country isn't? Today is a day I will drink Doctor Pepper to celebrate what good it has done, and I hope that even if we don't see eye to eye, we can at least continue to be friends.

[HereComesTheSnow]

Greece's gross external debt is way bigger than 250 billion. Try 412 billion Euros.

And then remember how much smaller their economy is in comparison to Germany, let alone the States.

[HereComesTheSnow]

@Lugubrious

Not a Pepsi?

You're basically a communist.

Coke is red, they were always commies in disguise.

[KabenSaal]

<Snipped quote by KabenSaal>

This statement in no way addresses or reflects any comments made by either Lucius or me. You're not taking this seriously.

@Lugubrious

Yep, not in the slightest. It's a mental tick I have. I can't take anything serious on the internet.

[Plank Sinatra]

<Snipped quote by KabenSaal>

Nobody will thinks of them and nobody will, because they were casualties of the losing side. Or the victims of the first two atomic bombs ever dropped on humans.

@PyroDash888

"The Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing." -Dwight D. Eisenhower, Newsweek, 1963

"It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons.

"The lethal possibilities of atomic warfare in the future are frightening. My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children." - William Leahy, Chief of Staff to FDR and Truman

"When I asked General MacArthur about the decision to drop the bomb, I was surprised to learn he had not even been consulted. What, I asked, would his advice have been? He replied that he saw no military justification for the dropping of the bomb. The war might have ended weeks earlier, he said, if the United States had agreed, as it later did anyway, to the retention of the institution of the emperor." - Norman Cousins, biography of Douglas MacArthur, Pacific Theatre commander and known psychotic break waiting to happen

"I made one great mistake in my life [...] when I signed the letter to President Roosevelt recommending that atom bombs be made; but there was some justification - the danger that the Germans would make them." - Albert Einstein

People who commanded in the war were thinking about the victims of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Straw man some more.

also i should have a profile done for this game someday

[Lucius Cypher]

<Snipped quote by KabenSaal>

History is made by the victors. Just look at Germany. Because we lost, nobody remembers the civilians who were brutally slaughtered by the British and US bombers in devastating fires and hails of bombs as well as the strafing runs on civilians, which are still denied to have happened by the Americans.
Then the people who wanted to return home were killed just because they were Germans in the Territories of former Prussia and Sudetenland as well as the Elsass and Lothringen. Nobody will thinks of them and nobody will, because they were casualties of the losing side. Or the victims of the first two atomic bombs ever dropped on humans.

@PyroDash888

Same deal with the south and the confederates pyro. They'll forever be known as the racist white slavers, and dont even have the backing of a country full of history. Are any of the new age KKK or ilk worthy of sympathy? No. But people do forget they are Americans, and suffered as much as their opponets did. Only, they lost. Even events like the Vietnam War was hell for all involved. No one came out of that one a winner. most are pucky to come out alive and tell their story.

[Ookawa]

<Snipped quote by PyroDash888>

You're telling me that because you apparently know more than I already, after barely any debate, that I must believe you without sources? I must confess, I've never seen the list of 'human rights' outlined anywhere other than the US Constitution. The one you quoted intrigues me. I suppose 'dignity' means 'health'? People are starting to die in Australia, where socialized medicine has been the norm for a while. So few people are paying into the system, and so many are riding on it, that the government has no money to pay for all the health care and benefits are getting slashed. This information I received in part from a fellow guild member, Caits, an Australian citizen. Please, no need for crass language.

I don't remember saying 'free' health care. I know it's not free, because it costs money. That money is paid via taxes, by employers and employees alike, and in some European countries up to 50% of income is taken in taxes, perhaps more. The government then covers the residents.

The chart you've cited is 'proposed', and for two years ago. The current administration hasn't passed a budget in years, just continuing resolutions, and here's the current one, from an official site:


That's more on both health care and pensions than defense in the US.

@Lugubrious

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/#atop

Articles 1, 3 and 25 might be interesting for you. 25 is even the right for medical care.

Also, the German budget is about 300 billion Euros. Today that would be about $310 Billion. The US requested budget for 2015 is $3.9 Trillion. 22% of that is a lot. We have 11% and an unemployment rate of 6.2% decreasing very quickly.

That's more on both health care and pensions than defense in the US.

@Lugubrious

And that is bad why? Isn't it the main task of a country to provide the best quality of life for their citizens as possible?