Brovo said
Quick note: History doesn't have failings. History is merely the chronicling of events based on the perspectives of those who lived within those times and what physical evidence remains of it all.
I see what you mean and would agree if history weren't recorded by humanity. As an idea history should not have failings, as it should be an objective account of what happened. However, history is recorded and in a sense sculpted by people, each group, and within reach group each individual holding their subjective wants and passions. History is absolutely chronicling of events based on the perspectives of those who lived, but if those who lived held a perspective not actually the truest account -- just the only surviving one-- then really history is an attempt at objectivity that can be bought and manipulated by influence. Physical evidence is also a great way of finding objective truth, but many peoples have destroyed any remnants or accounts of their enemies, either leaving gaps or placing false histories. So, I would say that history should be a like science in that it should be objective, but history has really proven that there is often more to it than what's visible at the surface -- ironically, history shining light on history.
All that just to say, I agree with you abstractly, but in reality, I would say history
does have failings in relation to the people and peoples it describes. We look with a modern eye and I don't think it's necessary to remove judgement of our predecessors simply because we're born later.
Brovo said
That's cool, so do I. :)
I know! Besides the imaginative worlds and evolving plots, that's another thing I enjoy about your roleplays.
Brovo said
Oh boy. Heart's in the right place but not the execution on this one. Making one group superior to another group in order to erode the reverse superiority reflected in history or other sources of fiction doesn't help paint any kind of image of equality. It's just inequality on different parties. I also have powerful female characters in my fantasy literature and role plays. Renalta is ruled by two queens, for example... But I don't define their rule by their gender. Other characters might note that it's unorthodox for a pair of women to rule a kingdom, some might even disdain it, but they themselves are not defined by the fact that they're women. They're defined by the fact that they're caring, intelligent, and strong, each in their own way, that compliments one another. Essentially: They're good rulers for their lands, gender be damned, and that is why they are in power, despite what any opposition might think.
And no, they don't need special matriarchal powers for that. They just need to be strong people. Same with male leaders in the world, no special powers of patriarchy for them, just some mix of characteristics that makes them suited for the job at that current time.
I agree with you and see how my lack of elaboration could be misconstrued. I did not mean suggest that male dominance would be solved by simple exchange, resulting in female dominance. What I meant to say, is that media representation already favours a specific group of people based on a specific set of characteristics. The roleplays I take part in and create are media, though not that broadcasted compared to film or published literature. Because of this I constantly try to flip our expectations to create questions. I recognize that creating a world that reflects history is safe as it abides by our records -- not fault on me, logically. I recognize that creating a world where things are pretty balanced tempts a few questions and gets things flowing -- bit riskier, but I'm not exposing myself to get those questions. Finally, I recognize and prefer to create worlds that have elements that are drastic, overt when they appear, and bring big questions. I do not have a quota for how many female bodied leaders should be in my roleplays, but I consider what powers my ideas reflect in history and fiction and how they might've been different were a few apparent characteristics flipped -- would it really be different? I see a lot of characters who are male and white, and I know in the shared lore common today this fits the profile for a hero in most of fiction. I get that. So I want to see if anything changes when the heroes don't match up with that expectation any more.
See I agree with you that a character is interesting because of their
character, not because they lack specific genitalia and rule. My way of engaging that topic is to change the common lore though. The heroes could be white males, absolutely, but the canon I personally create is apt to be more diverse with a range of populations based on the world's history and challenges. So yes, yes, a thousand times yes to what you're saying. I just choose to go about a bit differently, not thinking that reversing majorities magically changes everything, but creating a world where the lore reflects our own in substance, just not appearances.
Brovo said
Historically speaking, I would play with inequality because it's... Accurate... Sure you can have a female mercenary but a lot of people are going to look on that as being bizarre, some with outright hostility. Whether or not you consider that right or wrong is irrelevant to the fact that it happened.
I think that's something that I love about the Assassin's Creed label. While I wish they'd push more boundaries, one they do well with is casting gaze upon times and cultures we don't usually talk about. Often these cultures look different than what we'd expect. Inequality is a big problem in history. Specifically, in the histories certain countries we tend focus on more. Power dynamics are created by society though, and the -isms are social constructs. That means certain societies may have inequality, to many of us meaning women, people of colour, and non-hetero individuals have are usually undervalued. Other societies may have inequality that looks very different, perhaps even the opposite of all that. I do enjoy stories that remind us that history is more complex than white people being the age-old oppressors despite borders and passing millennia. Inequality has formed favouring different groups, including the overvaluing of women rather than men, and some cultures even placed women as the dominant hunters as we've placed men. So, historically is a weird term. The Minoan cultures are believed to have been a matriarchal society with the suggestion women were seen in a way we see men. Other cultures have done this too. That's also history, perhaps centuries of it, but we're not approaching all this from the perspective that could be solid belief.
So when I say I'd play with inequality to stimulate questions, that's what I mean. I should've spoken more about that before. We really approach all this from a small perspective amplified some by books and studies and cultural teachings. Our experiences too, all that's valid, but we really need also consider that history does hold more than we have as of now -- personally, I mean, but also as a world. We keep focusing on certain aspects of history and it's like we just expect the whole world was like medieval times in Northern Europe. Inequality can mean different things and I think recognizing it when it doesn't look so obvious, especially through roleplay, teaches us and actually creates a more creative story.
Brovo said
Out of curiosity, how does it expose a new perspective, what perspective would that be? I do like a good read so I hope you wouldn't mind indulging my curiosity.
The story is something I've been working with off and on for years. That may sound silly, but I've been careful to obtain as much perspective as I can around the time and the topic. I'd like to avoid specifics in a general forum, but I'd be happy to share with you the premise through PM. I'm not sure it'd be good form to air out an idea I've put so much into, and will continue to, on an easily searchable forum -- not that's probably worth stealing.
Very generally, the perspective is that of a young mixed boy living in a time and setting where racism exists as we think of it now, as well as in a form that recognizes more than visible extremes of colour. The story covers a lifetime, well, and more, and includes the ways we change in our perception of the world, morality, and sexuality. I'd like to engage with topics surrounding gender-queer individuals in times where we presume such was not a topic. The character's race will be a factor, but considering the time and situation not one that takes over the story. That said, so far, I have not ignored the life of one who cannot hide their characteristics in a world where certain characteristics are worthy of harsh repercussions. As a whole, the story actually surroundings a series of events this character witnesses, but the events reflect a greater problem building in teh world. As they grow up their recognition of the bigger problems grows too, so the story expands from personal experiences and anguish to a greater, loftier issue that reflects those of today. All this is very vague, and I know it might not be super helpful, but I would be happy to share with you a premise that doesn't describe just about every action/adventure story ;).
Brovo said
Changing the gender order against what our ancestors did as a result of sexual dimorphism would be a sweeping change to the state of the planet. It's often why stories which want to empower women in a medieval setting adventure to a fantasy land, like Game of Thrones, or Lord of the Rings.
That's sort of a slippery slope, right? Change one king to a queen and suddenly the entire state of the planet changed. At some point or another I'm certain a king died and, in that time, a queen was at least a figure-head ruler until a male heir or some other solution came around. And no, this is not a request for specific examples suggesting such thing unthinkable. Gender order is established in a certain form by certain societies. In those societies Game of Thrones and Lord of the Rings pull most from, absolutely, changing the gender order would be pretty drastic. But what happens when say 'oh hey, what about
those societies or
those mythos that actually set the same expectations? What happens when suddenly we choose to focus on a time in history that defies what we've grown to expect and use
that as a springboard for a roleplay or narrative. Or, even better, what happens when we use a time and an event we know largely from one perspective and find sources from the other, perhaps the society that was nearly wiped out, and use their perspective and order to build a story from. Absolutely, gender order was probably similar in many areas, but it wasn't everywhere, and it wasn't always exactly the same. So it's not ground-breaking, and absolutely not history-breaking, to highlight parts of history that have wonderful story potential, and happen to not follow the gender order we see as historically common.
Again, I agree with you, I just think it's maybe more valuable to use stories and histories that are just as valid to introduce ideas that are relevant to today.