Dolerman

Yo, I'm new here

@ConanStargazer@dreamingKatfish

What kind of RPs do you like?

Underrated and Overrated Video Games

I guess after getting BTFO on the Kill Bill debate, I should have expected contention in another one of my threads.

But yeah the Yukes are a good unique character design. Just because they look aesthetically ugly to you it doesn't mean they aren't well thought out. Plus the races look best in context with the others.

Xandrya's First Contest (Match Finished)

@Xandrya Okay posted, but I think you may be dead, chica.

Xandrya's First Contest (Match Finished)

Zai braced himself as his opponent jumped after him, he was expecting her to fire her gun but instead she closed the distance. Suprisingly though she didn't attack him, she just got her weapons ready and started to inch towards him. Being a little caught off guard by that he hesitated, wondering if some sort of trap was ready, but no, this woman wasn't trying to kill him, but detain him.

Zai felt the tiniest hint of guilt for not engaging her in an honorable hand to hand combat but he was killer first and a marital artist second. He pulled out his submachine gun and sprayed a full burst of bullets at his opponents torso and face at close range.

Underrated and Overrated Video Games

The only thing underrated about Crystal Chronicles is the character design and dat theme song.

The Political Thread

@Pepperm1nts

You should use facts when debating, not feelings you far left, communist, vegan, hippy, degenerate, flag burning libcuck.

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

I think I'm going to eject myself from this conversation at this point.

@tex

Probably for the best, I can only say the same things so many times, and this thread is actually about Bright and Hotel Artemis. But if I make a feminism 101 thread, you'll be the first to know.

Y'all come back now.

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

I suppose that a massive portion of media is indeed 'feminist' by that logic then. But like I've mentioned time and time again, I think this would make the label completely pointless. But therein lies my confusion as well. I'm arguing from the standpoint that Feminist media refers to texts that actively engage in a constructive dialogue about feminism. Otherwise, what's the point of labeling something as 'feminist' media? Wouldn't that be completely redundant? Absurd? Inane? I think it would be. What's there to be gained from slapping a feminist label on everything that vaguely matches this nebulous idea of feminism? Other than brand recognition, anyways.

@tex

There is definitely more feminist media then there used to be. But you'd be surprised how many films/novels/comics/video games still treat females inequal to men in terms of motivation, character tropes and archetypes. Kill Bill (vol 1) was released in 2003 so a film as boldly feminist as it is was significant for it's time. So maybe there will be a day where feminist media is redundant, but we aint there yet mate. And again, it's only nebulous to you because you are unfamiliar with it, feminist representation is actually quite simple, as you even said above.

Do you know what the Bechdel test is? Are you familiar with this way of grading if a movie meets even the most basic levels of feminism?

My criteria are stricter than yours, to put it simply. Although I could call every single movie that features a homosexual character a LGBT movie, I wouldn't, because that would be silly. In this sense, our opinions differ.

@tex

No this isn't 'stricter' criteria, its just misguided. Again you are conflating a film being feminist in terms of representation of it's characters and a character within the film being a feminist by your LGBT analogy.

You could have a non-feminist film, where a character who is a feminist is present, maybe a rom-com where said character is a whiny 1 dimensional bitch who is maybe only there to antagonize a protagonist male in his desires to chase a girl or something.

Kill Bill doesn't have any explicitly feminist characters in universe, none of the women in the films are joining the women's march or talking about smashing the patriarchy. They just exist as a extremely independent respected characters with complete agency over their actions that are no motivated by their gender at all.

I suppose a lot of this does stem from the fact that I don't have a concrete understanding of feminism. But it's like I mentioned from the start, feminism as an ideology is largely subjective as with any form of social science. I was initially going based off of what little I understood about feminism's political goals, which are very simple are hard to confuse. I mentioned this earlier, a few times, but maybe I should have been... Clearer? This is why I took the approach I did. From that perspective, one which I maintain mind you, I don't think Kill Bill should be labeled as a feminist movie

@tex

There is some subjectivity in feminism and it gets very divisive the 'deeper' you want to go. Much like things like Libertarian-ism (what is 'true' freedom) etc. But the basic ideas of the ideology are very straightforward and can be applied to Kill Bill.

If we are talking about feminism as in current political movements outside of fiction and media, we can all agree that Beatrix Kiddo is not a role model for women, as far in the fact I don't women or anyone else to be taking bloody revenge with a fucking samurai sword if they feel wronged. But this is completely seperate from the discussion I was having and the points I was trying to make.

Now to be clear, you have humbly admitted you know little about feminism and holding to the fact you don't Kill Bill is feminist. But me, @Fabricant451 and the very smug @Inkarnate do know more about feminism than you.

So with all do respect 1 person's opinion on a film in regards to an ideology that they don't fully understand, isn't going to hold much weight in a debate against those who do understand it. If you don't think Kill Bill is a feminist movie down to your lack of knowledge on feminism, the only thing left to do is to learn more about it. I can only make so many arguments before I'm basically just teaching a class.

Bad Movies Worth Talking About (Hotel Artemis & Bright)

I... Disagree entirely. If themes like violence, Revenge, brutality, and Absurdity - all of which are extremely prominent in Kill Bill if I'm remembering that much correctly - do not run against the moral foundations of feminism, are you criticizing the movement as a whole? Isn't feminism, even as an ideology, about bringing women up to the same legal/social standing as men? I would say themes like this run in the exact opposite direction of feminist morals. If you would argue otherwise, I think we're in a baffling disagreement. Although I would associate themes like this with the feminist movement if I validated idiotic behavior, I don't think the movement is defined by particular forms of activism and incomprehensibly selfish morals. I think labeling these themes as neutral is extremely short sighted, and harmful. Clashing negative themes with ideas like the empowerment of women does not create a positive dialogue. They inspire a corrupt perspective. It may also be why the natural reaction to 'feminist themes' is negative, but that's another topic entirely.

<Snipped quote>

Violence should be obvious. Feminism's entire tone seems to shift over the years, but generally speaking, it existed to bring women up to the same legal/social standing as men. Whether or not you can actually manufacture a nebulous and short-sighted concept like 'social equality' is besides the point. In this case, violence acts as a direct counter to the goals set in place here. Would you argue the opposite is true? Or that Violence, when paired with feminism, has no effect on the effects as a result? I'm open to hearing more on that.

Selfishness is also contradictory to the united goal that feminism seems to portray. It is a movement directed to help - at least in its early stages - all women. So in what way do selfish goals enforce this idea? Wouldn't selfish behavior, in a similar fashion to violence, run against these goals? Or would you say that feminism is in fact a selfish movement? Or again, do you think that this has no effect?

Justice is a tricky topic. Inherently, I believe that justice is idiotic. There's nothing to be gained from justice, especially when it's hard to define what justice really is. Although I wouldn't argue that this runs counter to feminist themes, I do not feel that the justice being portrayed in Kill Bill is anything remotely reasonable. It is justice built on spite and revenge. I could see the reasoning here if the main character's motivations were supported by the love of her daughter, but when you eliminate that aspect, there isn't anything pushing her forward except for the narrow desire for revenge. The only reason that the movie works then, is because of how absolutely absurd the universe is.

@tex

So what you're doing is conflating your personal ideas about what traits are intrinsically positive or negative with feminist representation in film. Which is making you miss the point.

We are not talking about what personality traits or action real life feminists should be using or aspiring to use, we are talking about the fact that the women in Kill Bill are largely treated and represented irrespective of their gender. It doesn't matter if taking bloody revenge is a good or a bad thing to you. A feminist movie is not a 'how to guide' for feminists.

All these traits: that you listed are neutral, they aren't intrinsically feminist or anti-feminist, they just exist in the film. Now considering the cast are all murderers for hire, these motivations and actions actually make a hell of a lot of sense in universe. Beatrix isn't portrayed as noble hero, she's vicious killer who was fucked over by her former gang of vicious killers and she is taking bloody revenge because she's mad. Why would a character as brutal as that need to be motivated by 'the love of her daughter'?

The fact that you find this 'baffling' 'inane' or 'absurd' stems from the fact that you don't really understand feminism.

Xandrya's First Contest (Match Finished)

@Xandryaover to you