Mammon

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

Kadaeux said
No. There is no logical fallacy involved. As you can see from your own statement.The deaf, blind and mentally handicapped are, like it or not, abnormal. To declare it is ok to kill an animal for an abnormality and not a person, simply because the person can say "but I don't want to die" is the hypocritical approach. Additionally you explicitly mention "after every other option has been exhausted"I would venture to say that less than a single percent of a single percent of people who commit suicide have exhausted even SOME of the options let alone all of them.

The reason it is a logical fallacy is because you are not arguing against what I am actually trying to say--which is that it is merciful to allow those with enough emotional trauma to consider suicide commit it. I do not condone the execution of perfectly viable and functional people--which the deaf and blind are. What I mean is that animal life is usually considered less important than human life. If people justify the killing of animals to put them out of their misery, it should be easy to see why a human life--which has an extremely high capacity for emotional and mental pain--deserves to be given the same option of peace through death.

Kadaeux said You do mean it. And you're absolutely wrong. There is no "ultimate exertion of will" to die. It is VERY EASY, people yak on about how they're overcoming the instinct to survive at all costs, an instinct that every single one of us ignores daily. You don't "regain control of your life through suicide" you demonstrate your utter fear of living, a fear of living more profound than fear of death. There is no such thing as "legitimately suicidal" while one can have reasons I consider "acceptable" the act of suicide is still an unacceptable one.

You are absolutely right about fear. Most suicide is an act of fear and desperation, this is true (with perhaps maybe metaphysical suicide being the one exception, but that's not really what I'm discussing). To understand how desperate it is, let's briefly think about what it's like to be on a very high building or bridge. When you look over the edge, you experience fear... Fear that you might fall and die. In many people, this fear is enough to trigger a physical response--sweaty hands, increased respiration, dilated pupil, etc. If you've had a near-death experience, recall that the fear you had then was even worse, and you may have had nightmares about it following the incident. Why? You have an innate fear of death. Most suicidal people still experience this fear of death. You said that their fear of living outweighs their fear of death. That's hugely significant! Their daily life is so full of depression, anger, guilt, and fear that they would rather kill themselves than live one more day. Can you pause an appreciate that for a moment?

...

All right, so saying that these people are trying to escape the fear and sadness they experience daily is no slight to them. If they have no other options and it is their will to die, who am I to deny them that choice--the ultimate extension of their will over their own body and life.

Kadaeux said And as I said before, I doubt even a percent of a percent of suicides even ATTEMPT to make all efforts to right themselves. They declare life too hard, chicken out and dodge the next train off the mortal coil. (Sometimes literally, and seriously, suicide by train is perhaps the dickiest way to go and if fucked up leaves you off a lot worse.)

This brings up an important issue: the means that someone commits suicide. Jumping in front of a train will usually kill someone, but it can leave the engineer or the passengers quite distraught. If suicide were socially understood and accepted as a last resort, I think that people would have a safe and private place to kill themselves without risking harm to other people either physically or mentally. Slavoj Zizek, a modern superstar Lacanian-Marxist philosopher, suggested that perhaps a panel of psychologists review the person's case to determine if it is a temporary sadness, a trauma/mental illness which cannot be overcome, or a metaphysical awakening. Should the last two be true, they would be permitted to kill themselves. If it is a temporary sadness, then they would be provided with the services they need to feel better.

Kadaeux said And that is just demonstrating your own lack of understanding, i'm turning thirty this year, i've lived with depression since I was about fourteen, i've had suicidal thoughts and shovelled them back in the back as the ultimate act of cowardice. As being "short sighted"Person A: Had three kids. They die in a car accident. Kills self.Person B: "OH NOES THEYZE PIKKING ON ME!" Kills self.There is no parallel. It's not belittling someone, it is recognising that person B has no valid reason IN ANY POSSIBLE WAY for suicide. Even with mental illness added on top, something I am INTIMATELY familiar with, the fact person b considered that reason enough to terminate their life isn't an ultimate act of will. It's the ultimate act of weakness.Sometimes. Yes. But in the VAST majority of cases no. In the vast majority of cases no attempt is made to fix their circumstances.

Kadaeux, I'm sorry you've dealt with depression since you were 14. It's somewhat normal for people to think about suicide, casually or otherwise. However, this does not give you the right to mock and belittle other people. Bullying is a serious issue; coupled with young hormones and depression or another mental illness, and it can be just as crushing as any other problem. Let's apply some empathy to this situation: pretend you're a freshman in highschool--this is a roleplaying site after-all.

You have no friends, no girlfriend (though everything biologically is telling you that you NEED one), and you have some physical minor abnormality... Overweight and acne. Despite the fact that you're intrinsically the same as any other human being--capable of complex thought and feeling, of learning and growing, of loving--you've been doomed to being mocked or even physically threatened daily. You feel isolated from the rest of the world. Attempts to make new friends or reach out are cut off and met with avarice. This is not something that goes away. For the next three years, everyday is the same and you fall into depression. Your grades have dropped from skipping school to avoid being tormented. You just come home from school and go to bed and lay there. You try therapy, you try anti-depressants, but nothing helps because you can't stop them from making you feel like a freak, like someone unloved, like someone inhuman. You can't wait one more year, one more month, one more day for relief to come. You take your life into your own hands and you kill yourself.

Can you really say that's not as bad? Sure, Person A lost all of their children in one setting. His pain is immediate and intense. Person B has been mocked over the course of their school career, for years. His pain is slow and grinding. The difference is the duration and intensity, not the overall feeling. This doesn't make one any better than the other.

Further, I notice that you attribute Person A's suicide to external stimulus (the death of his children) but you attribute Person B's suicide to an internal stimulus (a weakness of character). This is a type of victim blaming which is psychologically most common and related to cognitive bias; when you attribute someone's actions to an internal stimulus, you are directly blaming them for their choices. In reality, almost 80% of anyone's choices come from an external stimulus. In Person B's case, it would be bullying.

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

Wreck said
i think that's what i was trying to say. when river died, i didn't feel angry or resentful about him killing himself. i didn't know he did it but if that was his choice then i'm glad he's at peace. the last thing i wanted was for him to keep living with so much pain/or whatever. some people think they can't be helped. i didn't think anyone could help me and i didn't see the point. i was tired of reaching out to people that weren't interested in helping me, and i felt like i was bringing everyone down when i brought it up.

I understand, and I'm sorry you ever had to feel like that. If you ever need someone to talk to, feel free to PM me.

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

Kadaeux said
Because, an animal, unlike a person, cannot seek help. If they're injured take them to a vet unless they're obviously going to die then put them out of their misery. If they're senile it's called "Euthenasia" and shouldn't be denied, and "otherwise abnormal" should we start executing the blind, the deaf, people with down syndrome? After all, by your comparator we'd just be putting them out of their misery, it's a perfectly acceptable act after all.A human being, unlike an animal with that critical little "language barrier" issue, can seek help.

You seem to be ignoring half of what I address in my post. When I say it is ethically acceptable to commit suicide, I explicitly mention that this is only after every other option has been exhausted. This "language barrier" is a particularly interesting point, because usually people who commit suicide want to die; executing the deaf, blind, and mentally handicapped is not the same as what I am discussing, because many do not wish to die and have a high quality of life. In fact, I would venture to say I have not met someone with Down's Syndrome who was unhappy. What you're suggesting is actually a logical fallacy called "slippery slope."

Kadaeux said No, it's the ultimate expression of a fear of living more than a fear of death. People go on about how it's an "ultimate expression of will" it really isn't. The human sense of self-preservation is not that strong, curiosity, boredom and all other manner of things overcome it almost every time. "What is that strange thing." "What's it like to jump out of an aircraft." "I'm going to join the military." The only difference is that a suicide is setting out to kill themselves.

I think that people who commit suicide are not simply curious about what it is like to die. When I say it is the ultimate exertion of will, I do mean it; those who are legitimately suicidal because of trauma or mental illness experience a huge loss of control. Sometimes, even after therapy, medication and patience, the only way to regain control of their lives is through suicide.

Kadaeux said If someone I loved committed suicide i'd hold their memory in contempt for the short time it'd take me to discard their memory. Most people who commit suicide don't even make genuine attempts to get help. And unlike some i'm not speaking from a void here. I've had near crippling depression and anxiety issues for some years but I refuse to let that get me. In the end life is a battle and i'm not going down without a fight.People who commit suicide ARE acting out of pure selfishness and greed. They can't see a way to make their lives better. They don't WANT a way to make their lives better, instead they want a way out and will take it and leave everyone around them to pick up the pieces.

Again, this goes back to what I said about it being acceptable only after every other attempt at righting themselves has been made. Even if we are talking about these "selfish individuals", I think that what Jorick had to say is still very applicable. In case you haven't read it, here it is:

Jorick said
Is suicide selfish? Well, it's selfish insofar as it is a decision a person makes without regard to how it will affect others, but what of it? Other people are not entitled to one's life in the first place. Claiming that others are selfish for denying you something you want but have no right or entitlement to is a kind of selfishness in and of itself. It's a crude metaphor, but decrying those who commit suicide as selfish because it makes other people feel bad is like saying someone putting password protection on their wi-fi is selfish because other people want to use it and being unable to is annoying for them. Sure, by the definition of the word both of those acts are selfish, but being selfish is not inherently bad. Just because something is selfish does not make it unacceptable or wrong. It is utterly reasonable to place higher value on yourself than on others. Selfishness is in essence an expression of thought that other people's desires are not as important as your own, and this too is reasonable.I find it entirely selfish that people whine about their own sadness when someone they were close to committed suicide. What of the person who went through with suicide? Whatever they were going through (likely depression, and likely other things too) was so bad that they felt their only way out was to end their life to escape it. Now that's some hardcore fucking sadness for you. Quit your bitching and try to empathize with that situation before declaring that now dead person to be horrible for their selfish act. People are so selfishly concerned with their own feelings that they lose sight of this sort of thing. Who are you to condemn another person's selfishness that caused you some pain when you're selfishly dismissing their greater pain in the same breath? It's fucking ridiculous, and it's one of the many things that show how stupidly and incorrectly people view and treat mental health issues.Getting all upset with a depressed person for committing suicide is like being pissed off at someone for dying because they got mugged and stabbed multiple times and died in the hospital a couple weeks later. A person who becomes depressed or has other mental health issues causing suicidal thoughts is no more at fault than someone who gets mugged, and the hard truth is that sometimes all the medical help in the world isn't enough to save someone from a stab wound. It's even worse for mental health issues, because someone who was stabbed will always rush to get medical attention, but due to our fucked up societal views on mental illness tons of people who are depressed or have other issues don't seek help. They're walking around with what is essentially a mental stab wound and not seeking help due to a very reasonable fear of what people will think of them and say about them and how people will treat them for it, and those same people then have the gall to be upset with them when it ends in death. It's absurd. If I had to measure the balance of selfishness in the equation, I'd say the lesser weight definitely lies on the side of those who commit suicide. Those who decry and blame them are so much more selfish that it's not even a contest as far as I can see, and it's extremely hypocritical to boot.

Kadaeux said In most cases, absolutely nothing to justify or explain it. Sure there are some cases, such as rape or child molestation victims who I percieve as having a damned good reason to do so. Or a parent that has lost their children in some horrific accident. But the vast majority of suicides have no logical, rational or in any possible way justifiable reason other than "life's too hard, ima checkin out early."

I agree with you that suicide is often not logical; many people who commit suicide are not in a rational state of mind. However, I don't think that belittling someone's problems is a good thing to do in any way, and saying that some people have a justifiable reason over other people to commit suicide is extremely short-sighted. I would venture to say that a vast majority of people who consider, attempt or commit suicide are suffering from a mental illness, such as depression, bipolar disorder, or something similar. I think your summary is a gross oversimplification of the issue at hand and shows an extreme lack of empathy and understanding..

Kadaeux said :pYes. It is.

I completely disagree. The circumstances which lead to someone committing suicide are usually not the victim's fault; as you mentioned previously, you can't possibly justify saying the victim of child molestation or rape is in any way at fault for that happening to them. It's also beyond their control that they suffer from a mental illness. Sometimes, there's simply no way of fixing their circumstance, and death is their only freedom from pain.

Suicide, Tragic or Selfish?

I don't believe that suicide is either tragic or selfish, not that I condone suicide. It's the ultimate expression of will over one's own body and own life. There are some events in life that people can't live with; no amount of time or therapy can solve these problems. No one can, through any amount of effort, change the past. There's no way for someone to regrow an amputated limb, or raise the dead, or erase past trauma. If someone had truly lost the desire to live, if their life is absolutely bereft of happiness or contentment, it's far more utilitarian for them to end their suffering.

Sometimes when an animal is severely injured, senile, or otherwise abnormal, people kill them to put them out of their misery. It's a perfectly acceptable act and minimizes the suffering of the animal. Why would you try to deny or belittle that same right for a human being, who--as far as we know--has a much higher capacity for emotional and mental pain?

I'm not trying to say that suicide is ever the best solution; what I am saying, however, is that sometimes--after all other resources have been exhausted, after someone has tried therapy, anti-depressants, time, and friendship--it is the only way to ease their pain.

I don't find suicide selfish. If anything, those that wish the victim to continue living a life full of nothing but unyielding hurt and grinding depression are selfish. Most commonly, people would much rather force their own religious or personal beliefs down the other person's throat than attempt to understand them. Yes, you should try to console the victim and help them get every resource available to fix their problem, but... If you loved someone who committed suicide because they had no hope of recovery from their mental illness, then you should find comfort in the fact that they are no longer in such pain, instead of pretending that it was an act of pure selfishness or greed.
I also don’t find the act of suicide to be tragic. What I find more piteous is the life they must have endured to commit suicide. I can only imagine what someone must have gone through because of either mental illness or trauma to choose death and peace over life and suffering.

Instead of pointless sympathies, I think that those considering suicide should be given access to mental health care and meaningful friendship. I personally don’t believe in any religion--so whether or not the victim goes to Hell is a non-issue to me—but I somehow doubt an all-loving and understanding god would punish someone for taking their own life because of trauma or mental illness.

Just to summarize: there are certain feelings and events in someone’s life that are completely beyond their control. There are some things that cannot be repaired, cannot be stopped, and cannot be prevented which lead to a huge amount of torment and human suffering. It is not the weakness or selfishness of the victim which leads them to kill themselves. I think it should be socially acceptable to kill oneself should all other resources be exhausted.

Cracks in The Sky//Core Catastrophe [Interest Check]

I'm definitely interested.