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    1. Zugzwang 9 yrs ago

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This sounds RIGHT up my alley. I am 110% interested.
@Zugzwang

I do believe we are broadly in agreement here. We both seem to agree that the katana as it stands has a reputation far in excess of it's actual effectiveness, and that it is fairly good at cutting down unarmoured opponents. Nowhere do you see me arguing that it would be effective vs a fully kitted out ~1500's era man-at-arms.

We only seem to disagree on the degree of effectiveness of a katana for it's time and circumstances, ie Japan prior to about 1850, after which the society went on to modernise, conquer, and then get a suntan.


I agree. I suspect I am correct, but I'll go do some more research when time permits: finals are on their way after all. Still, I always need more excuses to read about people hitting each other with sharp things.
This point of yours however was not readily apparent. Rather than a specific set of techniques such as draw cuts, it is the way the katana curves that allows it to cut through flesh and light armour so easily. This is also the reason why various types of sabre and scimitars had curves whenever strong armour for whatever reason was not normally encountered. A good example from the Napoleonic wars is the British 1796 pattern cavalry sabre.

((As a short, humorous aside: The 1796 pattern tended to wound and maim rather than kill. Allegedly the French considered this poor sport and petitioned the British to adopt a more lethal design. The British responds was a more polite form of 'lolno, working as intended motherfuckers'.))

My point is the very issue that made the katana a relatively mediocre sword, namely low quality materials, is the same issue that made it a viable weapon. A katana-wielder was very unlikely to encounter someone wearing full plate. When they did, usually during the invasions of China or Korea, it tended to not end well for them. I am trying to repeat your first point here: Ancient people were not idiots. The katana was invented and came into vogue in a region where it was very unlikely to encounter anyone with a full set of European quality plate armour.


This is mostly true. However, the point I was trying to make [and evidently failing at. I really should get a second opinion on these before I post them. I am very bad at conveying my own thoughts.] is that the katana is a weapon that developed in a sheltered environment without foreign competition, and while it worked acceptably for its region, compared to places like europe, where different regions and ideas clashed to thrust technology forward, it stands as mediocre at best.

What I was trying to combat with this post was the unwashed weeaboos who think that 'katana #1 #1 in serbia, katana making album of serbia, katana fast rap serbia' in every single case.

"it is the way the katana curves that allows it to cut through flesh and light armour so easily"

The curve helps in many situations, and is certainly a plus in the very specific environment [killing unarmored, shieldless levies] that it was intended for, but once again: there are much better swords for cutting [the talwar, or other middle-eastern/indian weapons jump to mind], and cutting is highly specialized and usually not useful in broad situations, in contrast to the idea I am trying to disprove.

It should be noted that the katana's curve is much less than many other weapons, both early modern european swords and middle-eastern weapons, and thus lacks many of the benefits the increased curve brings [being able to hold close to the body, additional cutting force, ease of use while on horseback, decreased weight] while still lacking the tapering point and added blade control a straight edge would bring.

Also, I don't know what you count as light armor here. If the samurai lamellar suits, for example, were brought to Europe, they would probably classify as light armor during the times they were in use. If these suits are indeed the things you are referring to, the katana are fairly ineffective, since the katana as mentioned before is a really fat sword, with the curve not helping its efforts, and most lamellar of the time was made of the same metal as the katanas, which would render it very good at stopping blows from the weapon.

"While this is true, there is a difference between weapons optimised for the job. Refer to my earlier point above about the use of armour here."

The katana is optimized for cutting down the unprotected masses and providing a defensive option for samurai in close quarters. My point is that the first goal is relatively easy, and while it does the job fairly well I would argue that declaring a sword 'good' because it is better-than-average at doing the absolute easiest thing a sword can do 'cut through unarmored opponents while both are afoot in close quarters' is not absolutely reasonable.

On goal number 2, being successfully defensive, the blade is curved,decreasing reach and opposing blade control, and the handguard is SEVERELY lacking, which all hurt its ability to keep an unhorsed samurai alive. It also cannot be used easily with a shield while not having the extreme reach of late medieval two handed swords, but since shields were almost completely absent from the Japanese islands this is not particularly relevant.

On my point of 'people in the past were not dumb', the katana is actually the best example I can possibly think of as an exception. The katana remained this way in very large part by the extreme conservatism and religious pressure put on smiths to retain the style and form of the weapon. The clinging to plate harnesses may come close, but I'd still have katanas take the cake.
@Agent B52

I know that blades can in fact split bullets. Most bullets are designed to fragment, mushroom, and generally do things that make them really good at soft tissue damage and really bad at "not getting cut in half". The idea is that a human WIELDING a sword cannot move the blade to cut/block the bullet. Bullets are too fast and the human mind, let alone the human arm, is too slow in almost every case, ESPECIALLY in a battlefield situation.

I never said the katana was bad at wounding the unarmored. I assumed its use in that field was implied when I said it was a good draw-cutting sword. The katana could really fuck up an unarmored peasant. But, the point is, so can any sword, and so can spears/bows. As such, and for many, MANY other reasons, they were the dominant forces on the Japanese battlefield.

I really should make a point about battlefield weapons, and why spears were so ubiquitous.

An additional note: the katana is a very poor weapon for fighting enemies in full plate armor. This is going to be in another section, but the long story short is: armor piercing becomes pretty much moot once late medieval plate harnesses came into vogue, and the katana lacks a great many qualities that fighting people in armor requires. It has a poor stabbing point. It is curved, so half-swording is less effective. It is short, so it is a rather poor aide to grappling, and its guard is not robust enough to hook, or to really be much help in controlling an opponent's blade.
Well then I'm down. Want to plan things through PMs?
I'd be interested, this seems like it has a lot of mileage.

I usually have a hard time dealing with sentient AI seeing as I am just nowhere near smart enough to write one realistically, but if we can figure out a way around that, I feel like I could be an at least passable writing partner.
@Willy Vereb

Thanks for commenting Willy, I appreciate people trying to fix wrong ideas. A lot of what you said is snackurate, and I feel like my broad overview without mentioned dates may have been a cause for confusion. However, I do have some problems with your counterpoints. I am on vacation currently, and thus do not have access to either reliable internet or most of the literature I would like to rebut your claims, but I will do my best.

“Guns spread because they were cheap”: This was certainly one of the reasons why they found prominence, but certainly not the main one. To paraphrase from the best book I have to hand in rural Wisconsin, “War Throughout the Ages” [a book that, while excellent, definitely shows its age], the very early handgonne was expensive and rare. The gunsmith was a prestigious, in-demand and difficult profession, and the earliest gunsmiths were given great deference. This is in addition to the gunpowder being both much more expensive than it became, and requiring skill on the battlefield, since gunsmiths would need to be retained since the powder was mixed on site rather than before, since no one listened to Roger Bacon when he said it should be wetted. Guns became much, much cheaper, mostly as powder became cheaper, standardized calibers were introduced by the French and later the world, and better metalworking made the guns faster to produce, but in the very earliest of days the firearm was not taken because it was cheap. It was, however, as you said, and as I pointed out above, very quick to train, at least once the matchlock became the standard and tactics had not evolved to incorporate the firearm’s advantages.

The personal firearm, and indeed gunpowder weapons as a whole were pioneered by Jan Zizka, the smartest military mind no-one has ever hear of. To quote directly from Lynn Montross, “Armor had become so stout that at ordinary battlefield ranges it resisted both arrows and crossbow bolts. Only the handgun remained effective, and Zizka eventually armed a third of his infantry with this weapon”. This was in the first half of the 15th century, and was well before standardized caliber, better powders or indeed the musket had been introduced. When these improvements became available, the firearm showed its dominance even more decisively.

Your points about crossbows are accurate. Crossbowmen are much easier to train than gunners. However, just like at the beginning of the civil war, accounting for projectile drop is difficult. My only point was that foot soldiers equipped with firearms were comparatively easier to train that crossbowmen, not that the crossbow is somehow super had to master.

“Gunmen were a mass of infantry who were made out of peasants under a relatively short time”: not necessarily. Again, here we are faced with an issue because neither of us mentioned dates, so I am wondering when you are talking about exactly. Any time past 1500 or so would be, in my opinion, incorrect. At this time, massed gunners of the French had smashed condottieri employed by Venice and Milan, and the battle of Cerignola had proved the utter, ruthless effectiveness against the Spaniards. Professional armies were outfitting soldiers that, while only at the beginning of the Early Modern period, were already becoming far more professional than the mass levies of a hundred years prior.

“Muskets at average were fired from 30-50 meters”

Certainly against heavy armors from the oldest firearms, this is true. I assume you are talking about the very beginning of firearm development, because this was snackurate then. Of course, as time went on, this range increased to ~100 yards in the Napoleonic wars, perhaps more, and firearms became more and more able to counter armor, with the standardized firearms of Adolphus or the Hugenots being far superior to the earliest weapons.

“Actually for a truly killing blow musketeers had to let armored soldiers as close as 15 meters.”

I assume you mean ‘gunner’ rather than ‘musketeer’, or ‘arquebussier’, sine muskets never faced fully armored knights in the field as far as I am aware. Also, the musket which phased out the arquebus in the 17th century were more than capable of punching through anti-musket plate armor from further than 15 meters, thanks to better powders, better shot and a longer barrel made possible by the lighter construction.

Again, this changed as firearms developed. Early in the firearm’s history this is true, certainly. But, as firearms developed, and armors developed with them to ensure this tiny killing range, the armor conked out first. The efforts to make the mounted knight a citadel failed to outlast the efforts to make the gun better, and as such armors were dropped.

“So yeah, this has nothing to do with people suddenly going stupid and opting for an inferior weapon. Neither the truth is "Gunz too OP, plz nerf".”

You’re right, of course. But, as I said, I never mentioned a date for a good reason. Firearms were not thrown out the window in the middle of the 15th century because they had value, and they were not immediately adopted by everyone because they had serious drawbacks. But, as you said: by that point, crossbows, wooden siege weapons and bows had reached their zenith, while firearms had massive potential to grow. Firearms were slowly adopted more and more as both they developed and the ways people used them developed. Men like Adolphus, Zizka, Henry IV and Cromwell adapted to the firearm and used the firearm as it changed. I am not saying that the medieval firearm was the best thing ever. I will make my previous points much more clear in this regard. However, as firearms became better they became the best method for fighting, and as such people in the past, who were not fools, used them more and more, until the fields of Jena and Borodino had tens of thousands of muskets on them and not a crossbow in sight.

In brief refutation to your other points.

“chainmails were too cumbersome and expensive”

Absolute nonsense. Chain was never the primary method proposed to stop gunfire, and unless you are talking about some bizarre variant I have never heard of, Chainmail was never ‘too cumbersome’. In fact, it is highly comfortable. I wear my set around the house, and it does not restrict my movement whatsoever. As for being expensive, it certainly was, but it was not prohibitively expensive to the increasingly affluent Europe which saw the rise of the gun. It was less cost efficient than the breastplate and brigandine, certainly, but that does not mean it was expensive. Chainmail is also less restrictive than breastplates, by the way.

“Plate armors pretty much existed at the same time as guns and we already pointed out that people weren't stupid during that time, either.

I mention this above, but you’re right. They did exist at the same time. What I am trying to say is that while plate struggled to outpace the firearm it eventually hit its limit. Also, just as weapons like the katana remained in use for social reasons, it is important to note that the European mindset of armored, noble, cavalry dominance certainly extended the life of the plate harness far past what would be seen as cost effective. Great upheavals like these always meet with conservative pressures.

a medieval knight's equipment weighed about half as much as a modern soldier's and it mostly involved the plate armor with its weight distributed evenly on the body

My prospective section “armor is better than you thinl” will talk about this, and you are mostly right. Full plate harnesses weighed somewhere around 30 pounds in the late medieval period pre-firearms, which is not a lot, and it was excellently distributed by the suit. “Half as much as a modern soldier’s” is wrong, however. Modern US army plate carriers weigh about 16 pounds. Plate armor weighs about half as much as all the gear they’re carrying, which can sometimes reach over a hundred pounds, but knights would be expected to carry similar loads when out of combat.

Remember: no one willingly goes into combat weighed down. Modern soldiers do not fight with 100 pounds of kit on their back, and knights would have been burdened with more than just their armor when not in combat.
@Dinh AaronMk

This is a point worth going into more detail on, and I can see how I was unclear. While I wait, for everyone else: Dinh is absolutely right, the proportion of combat personnel has plummeted, and those combat troops are still spending the huge, huge percentage of their time not fighting.
as I mentioned briefly, 99% of the time on campaign, soldiers are not fighting. Most of soldiering is walking, cleaning, cooking, watching for the enemy, and so often doing a whole lot of nothing. This ratio has changed over time, obviously, with the most fighting per day likely in the Wars of German Unification or perhaps in the invasion of Europe in 1944-5, but the principle has never been inapplicable.
On second thoughe, I don't think now is a time to try new things for me, sorry. I've got a lot on my plate.
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