Tydosius said
This.EDIT: Do you mind if I use this as my signature?

Go right on ahead.

What? Mental Illness is called Mental Illness for a reason, you can't really debate this simple fact about like...

Words.

Turtlicious said
What? Mental Illness is called Mental Illness for a reason, you can't really debate this simple fact about like...Words.

I agree with mental illness being called mental illness for a reason, but I'm not sure if I fully understand what you're saying here. My concentration and thought processes have been really off today.

Dont mind turt, hes just trolling.

Gat said
Dont mind turt, hes just trolling.

Ah, figured. He seems to be a bit goofy.

Nice signature Wayne.

Turtlicious said
What? Mental Illness is called Mental Illness for a reason, you can't really debate this simple fact about like...Words.

Contradicts this:

Turtlicious' signature said
I'm quite capable of both verbose, and intelligent conversation, but generally I will respond to you with the same level of intelligence you show me. If you're being exceptionally moronic, expect an equal and proportionally appropriate moronic reply

'Illness' means a disease or period of sickness affecting the body or mind, so a 'Mental illness' is a disease-like sickness within the mind, which does not apply to Asbergers, because the closest physical equivalent of Asbergers I can think of at the moment would be being born with a somewhat different organ arrangement that still works.

Tydosius said
Contradicts this:'Illness' means , so a 'Mental illness' is a , which does not apply to Asbergers, because the closest physical equivalent of Asbergers I can think of at the moment would be being born with a somewhat different organ arrangement that still works.

Technically being psychotic a brain still works. It just doesn't work right.

Also, while we're on the topic of Asberger's and people bullshitting disorders, Asberger's has not been an official disorder since 2013. It was discontinued in the newest DSM for being an insufficient manner in which to diagnose various social disorders.

Just figured I'd illuminate you on that little tidbit there. It's not even a disorder anymore because the newest DSM doesn't even have it. It instead has a scaling system that grades you on just how socially retarded you are.

@Wayne: Welp. Here goes.

#1: You don't see a psychologist. You see a psychiatrist, or a therapist, or even a councilor. Psychologists are people who have a degree in psychology, not people who are trained to medically diagnose you and handle your case, though they have the training to understand what's up with your grey matter.

#2: You can't redefine psychosis to fit your own needs. This is just... No. :| Ludicrously offensive. Stop.

#3: Special snowflake argument? Really?... There's still no evidence for this incredible wild claim you have. Surely this would be in the news.

#4: How can you not recall what you're diagnosed with? This is like not remembering your own name. It's a significant part of your life. This is... What. No. This would be like if you didn't remember that you had cancer. How is this... I don't even...

#5: No you don't. Or the sources you have are the most awful sources I've seen in a very long time. Pick up a copy of the DSM. It's far more informative.

@Brovo

Dude, enough. If you have a problem with me, take it to PMs. It just seems like you're getting offended and hijacking this thread to call out on me when I have been trying to get out of my comfort zone and talk about something I felt was interesting for RPing, even though I don't really like to talk about my own personal issues.

If this keeps going, I'm going to have to get this thread closed. I wanted people to share their experiences and opinions with RPing mentally ill characters, not turn this into a big callout thread.

Wayne said
@BrovoDude, enough. If you have a problem with me, take it to PMs. It just seems like you're getting offended and hijacking this thread to call out on me when I have been trying to get out of my comfort zone and talk about something I felt was interesting for RPing, even though I don't really like to talk about my own personal issues.If this keeps going, I'm going to have to get this thread closed. I wanted people to share their experiences and opinions with RPing mentally ill characters, not turn this into a big callout thread.

I'm sorry. I have to call this out because this is the very thing that makes my life even harder than it already is.

Now if you want to close this thread, start over, and just talk about mental disorders in RP's and not reference your own life about it, sure, I'm chill with that, I'll probably even join in genuinely. Or go to OT and talk about your life and mental disorders and so on, and I'll openly disagree with you there.

But... Dude... No. I'm sorry this just isn't acceptable. This is the kind of thing that makes it difficult for society to take real cases seriously and that's a genuine problem that needs to stop because it's affected my life several times in every negative ways. Please understand that I will question it and I will be skeptical of it because... Well... It's highly destructive behaviour.

If you got offended that I openly questioned the legitimacy of your claim, then I apologize, but I have to. I literally have to. I am morally obligated to do so for the sake of myself and everyone like me. That's just how it is.

I have my own shit going on and I'm on the verge of snapping right now. I'm trying to tell the fucking truth, and honestly, it's going to come out skewed because of all this shit going on with me. Why the fuck do I even blabber on about my own things when everyone's going to take me for a fucking liar? That's what I'm told I have. BY FUCKING PROFESSIONALS. I'm not doing it for shits and giggles, I'm trying to give some insight. I don't have the privilege of having a fancy college or university education so that I could be a smartass about everything and be on my high horse around other people, and I'm probably not going to go because of how much of a nightmare the education system has already been for me.

You hardly know anything about me beyond what little I've said here, and honestly, there's still a lot of shit I can't talk about on a public forum. I have to take meds so that I'm not violently attacking people and having the cops put me in handcuffs and take me to the fucking hospital where I'm locked up in cold little rooms for hours if not days. Restrained. Having the shit beaten out of me. And those are my experiences. I don't expect you to believe me. And honestly, I wouldn't wish what I've gone through and what I still am haunted by and still have to go through each day on anyone else. But that's what happened, because human society sucks. And the people who claim to understand me and say they are oh-so-idealistic and tolerant end up being those who hurt me the most. I'm better off not trusting people at all.

I'm better off not talking about my life at all, but I end up doing it anyways because I can't filter what I say. This is why I end up becoming such a huge chew toy, both in real life and on the internet. Because I can't get my point across at all. It comes out all wrong.

Everything's just all kerfuffled lately. I need a break.

Wayne said Everything's just all kerfuffled lately. I need a break.

A solid piece of advice for yourself. When you know what you actually have, if anything, then talk about it, because how can you talk about your mental disorder(s) if you're not even sure what it/they is/are?

Note: In case you're concerned, no, I don't hold a grudge against you for this, at all. Maybe you do have something. I don't know. I ain't you. However, understand, I do have to be skeptical. I literally have to be.

Uhm, I'm going to contribute to the topic, but can I just say first that as someone who was diagnosed with Aspergers by a professional as a small child that I don't consider myself to be mentally ill? I have an neurological disorder that sometimes inhibits the way I function socially, but I am perfectly sane, and in fact, I have always scored higher then the average person in tests of empathy. (Which means that whole stereotype about us not having empathy is bull.) I'm not trying to start a fight with anyone, but I thought it would be helpful to clarify with my own life experiences.

People faking Autism on the internet (not accusing anyone here, I don't consider that my job to judge without knowing) is very hurtful though, especially since I've gone through my whole life never asking for pity from anyone, just to be treated like an equal, and yet other people use it as a way to get attention. It also makes me feel like no one will believe me if I tell them I have it, which is why I always go out of my way to clarify that I have a diagnosis from a doctor. I'm not trying to find people who will treat me differently, I'm trying to find people who will treat me the same.

Now that's off my chest, I mainly believe with regards to this the same thing I do about all controversial topics- you just have to be confident as a writer. There are no 'bad' ideas in writing, only inexperienced writers or under researched characters. Mental illness is never something we should avoid talking about, because those people are still human beings and they deserve to be part of our stories as much as anyone else. In fact, be it fiction writing or an internet RP, it's important to discuss controversial topics because that's the bane of ignorance. Still, research is the most important thing, and not just fact-checking on Wikipedia but actually going out and having real life experiences with the topic you're talking about. Fiction is a reflection of the writer's reality, and to write whatever your heart desires, that's all you really need to know.

Brovo said
A solid piece of advice for yourself. When you know what you actually have, if anything, then talk about it, because how can you talk about your mental disorder(s) if you're not even sure what it/they is/are? Note: In case you're concerned, no, I don't hold a grudge against you for this, at all. Maybe you do have . I don't know. I ain't you. However, understand, I do have to be skeptical. I literally have to be.

I understand, but ultimately, with all my shit going on, it's been very hard for me to talk in-depth, let alone talk clearly enough. That, and my cognitive ablities and recollection of things has been very skewed with all this stuff that's been going on in my real life, which I'd rather leave for private conversation.

As incredibly stressful as this was for me, I have no hard feelings either. Let's just leave this to die.

Brovo said
Technically being psychotic a brain still works. It just doesn't work right.Also, while we're on the topic of Asberger's and people bullshitting disorders, Asberger's has not been an official disorder since 2013. for being an insufficient manner in which to diagnose various social disorders.Just figured I'd illuminate you on that little tidbit there. It's not even a disorder anymore because the newest DSM doesn't even have it. It instead has a scaling system that grades you on just how socially retarded you are.

I just would like to point out that you have not 'illuminated' me to anything. Aspergers is just more specific than 'on the autism spectrum'.

Brovo, don't be a colossal dickweed. Okay, we know, you've had a hard time as a result of your own experiences with mental illness, and people faking it or trivialising it only make things a million times harder. You know that I know that because I wrote a whole freaking article on public misconceptions of mental illness and used you as a source, remember? Trust me, I get it. I've been there myself, actually.

But what you have to remember is that it doesn't make you an expert on every mental disorder ever. You don't have a freaking clue who Wayne is, what doctors he's seen, what hospitals he's been to, or anything else. Maybe it doesn't seem believable within the realms of your own experiences, but honestly, just as equally someone who's never experienced a disorder could call bullshit on stuff you've said about your experiences. You aren't in a position to pass judgement on everyone else who has any sort of connection to mental illness just because you have experience with it too. You are limited and locked within your own personal experiences just like anyone else.

Maybe you're right about Wayne's diagnoses not matching up with the way it should be diagnosed, I wouldn't know - but holy shit, you must be lucky as hell in your experience with mental health professionals and doctors if you think they always have actual competency and know the 'rules'. I'd bust out some statistics about how many wrong diagnoses are made annually or whatever, but honestly, I don't think I need to - it's a well-known issue that mental health treatment, even in the plushy Western countries most of us live in here on RPG, is still often pretty appalling. And with the clusterfuck of different diagnoses and conflicting opinions I've seen some people get caught up in, it wouldn't surprise me if some people didn't know what the hell was on the official record anymore.

But y'know what - let's just assume you're right. So what?

Calling people out on it, whether they are actually lying or not, helps nothing. It accomplishes nothing. You have no way of disproving what they've said, and it comes down to a bitchfight between the two of you, your word against theirs. It proves nothing. In fact, all it does is make people with genuine issues afraid to discuss them, in case they're actually persecuted by their own kind who don't believe them. You see a similar phenomenon in "nerdism", so to speak. Geek culture is so fucking brutal to people who they consider "posers" or not "real" geeks that it massively deters people from openly and genuinely enjoying "geeky" things and showing an interest. Another example: a girl I knew posted something up on Facebook condemning others for self-harming just for attention, which detracted from the seriousness of people who "genuinely" had a problem - completely fucking oblivious to the fact that half the reason harmers are so afraid to be open about it is because of the fear of being labelled "fakers" or "attention seekers", and that her doing that was only making life more difficult for people with those issues. You're doing the exact same thing here. Regardless of whether you're right about Wayne or not, busting everybody who's story doesn't pass your freaking arbitrary mental authentication checklist just means people feel fucking petrified of ever coming out and speaking about their issues in case they don't pass your little test, and end up being rejected and abused by those who should have been likeminded and supportive.

This is a personal issue for you. I know that. But you're an intelligent guy; don't let it cloud your judgement. Think about what you're saying and what it means in the wider context, just as you're angry at those who fake illnesses for attention for the wider repercussions they cause.

Anyway, despite my rant, I know you guys resolved your differences and whatever and don't think further argument is conducive to the discussion at hand, which is about RPing. I just felt it was important to note.

Tydosius said
I just would like to point out that you have not 'illuminated' me to anything. Aspergers is just more specific than 'on the autism spectrum'.

... No, Asbergers isn't, because it no longer exists as a medical disorder. At all. My suggestion is if you've been diagnosed with it, or if anyone you know has been, to go to a therapist and get updated with a better, more precise definition than Asbergers. Hell, Google it if you like, it's been discontinued since 2013, so it's been understandable recent. *Attempting to offer warm and friendly advice as someone who excels at neither of these traits, please don't take it the wrong way*

Now for the person who is utterly clueless... Cuz' I got nothing against you Tydosius.

Halo said Brovo, don't be a colossal dickweed.

Nice opener, glad to see you like to keep discussions civilized and understand that the way to create an equitable and amicable environment for such a discussion is to take personal potshots displaying your own emotional weakness and hinting that everything else following will likely be a rant about how I know nothing about things that have affected the entirety of my life and every thought I've ever had, eh'? Well, this should be fun anyway, continue.

Halo said Okay, we know, you've had a hard time as a result of your own experiences with mental illness, and people faking it or trivialising it only make things a million times harder. You know that I know that because I wrote a whole freaking article on public misconceptions of mental illness and used you as a source, remember?

Yes I remember, I also remember a few months later when you shared it with me over Skype I think it was, and I noted that it was highly one sided and biased, to the point where I couldn't really... Support it as authentic. You assured me it was for a school newspaper thing and I rolled with it figuring that if school newspapers were anything like real newspapers then bias had to be flooding out of every page or the article would be rejected.

Halo said Trust me, I get it. I've been there myself, actually.But what you have to remember is that [mental disorder claim].

You're right, which is why I own a copy of the DSM. Albeit one that needs to get updated to the newest form that discards Asbergers. I also make sure to coincide my personal research with other people from time to time to make sure I'm not going off tangentially. I do this because I want to understand these things. Am I an expect? Fuck no. Do I understand the basics? Fuck yeah.

For example: In general practice, you only diagnose someone with one disorder under each family of disorders. A family is a grouping of disorders with a similar premise: Depressive disorders, psychosis disorders, so on. Some disorders cross families, some are pure families, some are more specific, others are more broad. The reason why you only diagnose someone with one is because often times the symptoms for them are so similar that someone with bipolar would always also be diagnosed with depression, despite the fact that everything depression is, also falls under bipolar.

So now imagine my reaction when I see two social disorders, three depressive disorders, a physical disorders, and 2+ psychotic disorders all in one.

Not impressed.

However, later on in this thread, I make sure to try and cool things, explain that I wasn't personally attacking him but was skeptical because I have to be, and things cooled off. Then you came in. Tell me, does that white horse chaff underneath your thighs?

Halo said You don't have a freaking clue who Wayne is, what doctors he's seen, what hospitals he's been to, or anything else.

Mentioned that too, but hey, not everyone can be bothered to read the whole thread, I understand.

Halo said Maybe it doesn't seem believable within the realms of your own experiences, but honestly, just as equally someone who's never experienced a disorder could call bullshit on stuff you've said about your experiences.

And they would be fully right to do so. I'm surprised more people don't. More people should. Though I want you to note something, while I admit what family of disorders mine is located in (psychosis), I never reveal the specific disorder. Not in Skype, not in Steam, not here on RPG. Nowhere. I mention I have one but I don't ask for pity and I don't preface every damned sentence with "well in my experience as a psychopath..." Because that sets up a false throne of authority. I did that in Skype for a while until someone pointed it out to me and I realized the error in my methodology.

I'm by no means perfect but I will call bullshit when I see it on this topic. So far as I'm aware, Wayne's already attempting to figure out what exactly he or she has. They fully admitted later on in this thread they don't even know what disorders they actually have. That is a humongous problem, for Wayne, to not know, and so far as I'm aware, Wayne is attempting to figure that out now. So mission successful.

Halo said You aren't in a position to pass judgement on everyone else who has any sort of connection to mental illness just because you have experience with it too.

Uhh... Yes I am. Technically anyone can pass judgement over anyone else over anything they want, free speech kind of ensures that. Law 101 here.

Halo said You are limited and locked within your own personal experiences just like anyone else.

Yes I am, and I've admitted that, but again, the thread's whole two pages might be a bit too much for you, and I apologize.

Halo said Maybe you're right about Wayne's diagnoses not matching up with the way it should be diagnosed, I wouldn't know - but holy shit, you must be lucky as hell in your experience with mental health professionals and doctors if you think they always have actual competency and know the 'rules'.

Not really all that lucky. Most do actually know what they're doing. If you want to pull out statisti--

Halo said I'd bust out some statistics about how many wrong diagnoses are made annually or whatever, but honestly, I don't think I need to - it's a well-known issue that mental health treatment, even in the plushy Western countries most of us live in here on RPG, is still often pretty appalling.

For things like ADHD and Asbergers because they're too fucking broad, which is why Asbergers no longer exists and ADHD is getting curtailed and reworked over time. It's an evolving science, like every other science, and it only gets more effective with each DSM, not less effective! It is Hollywood movie bullshit that scaremongers this stuff! Not to mention, psychological disorders are really bloody hard to nail down. Especially when you have people claiming to be things they aren't in the tens of thousands. Look up Headmates for just one example of how utterly insensitive and disgusting this shit is. It literally drowns out the voices of those rational people who have disorders and are just trying to get by in life.

I pointed this stuff out to Wayne because he was either faking it or didn't have a clue about what was affecting his life. Either way, that's very, very detrimental to himself, and to everyone around him. I was trying to help him you ignoramus, and I was doing so by being skeptical.

Now are you going to continue to comment on mental disorders--the very thing you admit having zero experience on?

Halo said And with the clusterfuck of different diagnoses and conflicting opinions I've seen some people get caught up in, it wouldn't surprise me if some people didn't know what the hell was on the official record anymore.

Except that, you know, there's an official record with your local therapist. All you have to do is walk in and ask. If they don't have it for some reason they have a series of basic tests and interviews they can do to help clarify whatever spew of diagnosis you have.

Halo said But y'know what - let's just assume you're right. So what?

It detrimentally affects everyone involved on a personal and psychological level, and on a professional level. I already stated how absolutely damaging this is: People will look at Wayne (presuming Wayne is faking) and go "wow! You have like five disorders and you're doing perfectly okay! Why can't Brovo and Gwazi who each only have one disorder be normal?!" And that's assuming the best case scenario. I have to hide my shit in real life. If I didn't, I would never be employed anywhere. Nobody would hire me because of the lack of information out there, because of the fear mongering.

Halo said Calling people out on it, whether they are actually lying or not, helps . It accomplishes nothing.

It helped Wayne suddenly fridge horror discover they have no fucking clue what it is they have. Which means now they can go and get an actual, specific diagnosis, and get the appropriate psychological help that they're in need of. It also served to dispel myths and bullshit that others were readily buying into.

So it actually accomplished quite a bit. It helped Wayne. It made me feel better. It helped others in understanding what mental disorders actually are.

Halo said You have no way of disproving what they've said, and it comes down to a bitchfight between the two of you, your word against theirs. It proves nothing. In fact, all it does is make people with genuine issues afraid to discuss them, in case they're actually persecuted by their own kind who don't believe them.

Oh fuck no. I know exactly how those of "my own kind" work. Also, did you seriously just use that term? Do you have any idea how utterly dehumanizing that term can really be for some people? No? Didn't think so. You wanna know how those of my own kind work? They go to work. They get paid. They go home. They struggle with their respective disorder. They move on with life as best as they can.

They don't want to be known as "that psychotic guy" or "that one guy with ADHD". They want to be just known as "thomas" or "jeremy". If they bring up their disorder at any point it's in private with a few friends. If they have a giant "coming out of the closet" type thread, it'll be just that--a coming out of the closet, not a casual mentioning of their disorder, leave alone five of them! O.o

Halo said You see a similar phenomenon in "nerdism", so to speak.

Oh my god please tell me you aren't comparing nerd culture to mental disorders.

Halo said Geek culture is so fucking brutal to people who they consider "posers" or not "real" geeks that it massively deters people from openly and genuinely enjoying "geeky" things and showing an interest.

... Why would you eve compare an optional culture to a non-optional thing that detrimentally affects a person's life.

Halo said Another example: a girl I knew posted something up on Facebook condemning others for self-harming just for attention, which detracted from the seriousness of people who "genuinely" had a problem - completely fucking oblivious to the fact that half the reason harmers are so afraid to be open about it is because of the fear of being labelled "fakers" or "attention seekers", and that her doing that was only making life more difficult for people with those issues.

No, she was doing the right thing. There are way too many people who fake suicide or fake self-harm. To the point that when someone real comes along who will actually do it, the general response from the rest of the Internet or the general public is "meh whatever". Only after they've done it do people go "OH GOD I WISH I COULD HAVE SEEN THIS COMING!"

The same applies to mental disorders. The Isle shooter for example had obvious mental problems but nobody addressed it. Why? Because why bother, he was probably doing it for attention, all those videos about hating girls and all.

Halo said You're doing the exact same thing here. Regardless of whether you're right about Wayne or not, busting everybody who's story doesn't pass your freaking arbitrary mental authentication checklist just means people feel fucking petrified of ever coming out and speaking about their issues in case they don't pass your little test, and end up being rejected and abused by those who should have been likeminded and supportive.

Coming from someone who has utterly no experience with mental disorders who is now claiming to know exactly how everyone with mental disorders wants to be treated. Good job, you keep that up.

In all seriousness though, I don't really actually have high expectations for mental disorders. If Wayne claimed just one and then didn't make up a big story about it but just went "yeah I have X, and I don't like talking about it, but I'd like to know what people think of it in characters in RP's" I'd have been totally chill with that. Or, hell, if Wayne has no disorders and was curious about it, I'd have been more than happy to explain it to the best of my limited capacity.

The story that came up was the equivalent of someone claiming they are an astronaut special forces corporate business executive and nigerian prince willing to offer you five million dollars if you just email him your credit card information. I can say that, confidently, as someone who has had to live in the system for most of his life. Wayne may have simply written it horrible. Either way, it was worth being skeptical about.

Halo said This is a personal issue for you. I know that. But you're an intelligent guy; don't let it cloud your judgement. Think about what you're saying and what it means in the wider context, just as you're angry at those who fake illnesses for attention for the wider repercussions they cause. Anyway, despite my rant, I know you guys resolved your differences and whatever and don't think further argument is conducive to the discussion at hand, which is about RPing. I just felt it was important to note.

Well congrats. You brought it back up anyway to spend your first line throwing off insults and then attempting to explain to me that I know nothing, then corroborating that with completely inane examples which only display your complete lack of awareness on the field of mental disorders beyond halfwit statistics often done by those with political interests and personal biases.

The truth of it is this: Yes I'm not a psychiatrist. Yes, Wayne could totally be right despite admitting later on they had no idea what it is they had. And, yes, I could be making a total ass of myself, but being skeptical is the right choice here, it's what I generally encourage. Ask questions. Try to understand. When something sounds too good to be true, it usually is.

I wasn't doing this to be cruel, I was doing this to be informative, to try and help Wayne and honestly from the sounds of it I succeeded. The same goes for everyone else in this thread. Just... Trust me on this one. Please.

Now, I refuse to do the same as you've done back to you, quoting sentence by sentence, because the point never gets reached that way - you just spiral off, arguing about every tiny facet of the others' argument, right down to individual word choice. It strips everything of context and defeats the point of discussion.

As I understand it, your view is thus: "I could be wrong but Wayne's account of his experiences seemed unbelievable to me, therefore he must be lying. I thought it best to call him on it because people faking illnesses is detrimental."
My view is thus: "You have no bloody idea if his experiences are real or not, because you aren't an expert and are limited by your own personal experience. I think it's best not to call people on it because the more vitriolic you are towards people you've decided must be 'fakes', the less comfortable people with real issues feel expressing them, out of fear of receiving the same treatment."

I never accused you of being deliberately spiteful or cruel. I know that wouldn't be your intention. I also don't think that, honestly, you were seeking to help Wayne when you started this conversation. You were trying to call him out as a fake - which I understand, considering I know precisely how damaging those faking it can be (as I said, I've been there; you aren't the only one who knows anything), but on which my philosophy differs massively from yours. The core point of my argument was to highlight my view on this "calling out", and to get you to consider that maybe it could be detrimental. The way in which that point was presented was less than adequate, I'll admit, but I was hoping the core argument/the bigger picture would be taken into account rather than narrowing it down to word choice.

There is a difference between being privately sceptical, and deliberately trying to call someone out, in public, to prove them as a "fake". The former I fully support. The latter, less so, for the reasons outlined above. All I ask is that you consider that opinion - without quoting every tiny word I say and trying to pick apart my argument as if defending yourself from a vicious personal attack, or, even worse, somehow "win" the debate. This isn't Off-Topic, a debate on a purely intellectual level regarding pros and cons of X political system or Y approach to Z. This is much more personal, and is merely a discussion.

As for the whole "insult" thing, forgive me - it wasn't meant as a personal attack or vitriolic insult, really. It was akin to calling your mate an asshat or whatever.

EDIT: I think, in essence, I felt the need to comment precisely because I know how important this is to you, and that the idea of somehow being detrimental to the struggles of people with mental illness would absolutely kill you. I felt the way you were acting was potentially damaging when you didn't intend it to be, and felt that should be highlighted as something you should consider in future.