Jensari has always put emphasis on soresu's main usage being for deflecting blaster shots and not for dueling. The sith textbook says the same and you can reference it in many other areas. Its not a bad style, but unlike mkashi and shien it wasn't made specifically for dueling. literally the only difference between shien and soresu is shien is geared towards dueling so is more direct than soresu.

It's actually Jensaarai, unless the group/person you're referencing spells their name differently. Either way, a fan opinion does not make something fact. As it is applied in canon, Soresu has no outstanding shortcomings when used in a lightsaber combat situation. Quite the opposite, in fact. The reason they sent Obi-Wan after Grievous was because he was a master of Soresu, and that style was particularly well-suited for fending off Grievous' four-saber style, which utilized primarily power and ferocity (the same tenets of Djem So). Grievous defeated (and killed) dozens of other jedi in single combat throughout the clone wars, and Obi-Wan was the only one to ever even disarm him, much less defeat him. Even Mace Windu was outmatched and had to resort to the force instead of his saber skills (crushing Grievous' organ cage and giving him the iconic cough).

The point being: How was Obi-Wan even still alive if Soresu is an inferior style for lightsaber combat? Simply having superior skill clearly isn't the reason, since Mace Windu had just as much skill as Obi-Wan yet was unable to overcome Grievous in lightsaber combat. Even Anakin, who was more powerful and had as much training in Djem So as Obi-wan did in Soresu (Obi-Wan didn't start training in Soresu until after Qui-Gon died), couldn't break his defense, and paid for it with his limbs.

Whatever source book you're drawing from isn't backed up by the evidence in the movies, whereas my source is primarily the movies.

but you forget obi wan was overwhelmed and had to resort to force as well. Im not saying it is ineffective, but it lacks offense so it is somewhat at a disadvantage. Its not a huge deal, but shien was made to utilize soresu's precise and perfect defense, while still maintaining offensive power. Soresu was made to fight against blasters, this does not render it ineffective in a lightsaber duel, but does make it not decisive and at a slight disadvantage to makashi and djem so. Against ataru the Soresu user holds a distinct advantage due to his defense and the Ataru user will tire. However against a djem so practicioner the soresu user will have trouble maintaining his guard as well as have very few ways to actually hit the djem so user. All down to it it is mainly based on who the duelist are, but as a style I would give the edge to shien or djem so in lightsaber combat, but the edge to soresu in terms of blaster defense and combat.

I agree on every point except that Soresu is at a disadvantage against Djem So (and the fact that Obi-wan being overwhelmed makes the point moot. Prior to that point he had disarmed two of Grievous' sabers using purely lightsaber combat, something no other jedi had done). In every other instance (even in real life) where power is used against redirection, it's power that gets the short end of the stick. Again, Jiu Jitsu vs wrestling is the perfect example. Wrestlers are trained to use power and ferocity to dominate their opponent, where Jiu Jitsu practitioners are trained to use their opponent's own body, power, and ferocity against them. 9 times out of 10, given equal levels of skill and appropriate conditioning, Jiu Jitsu will win simply because it no longer matters how powerful or ferocious the wrestler is.

The primary difference between Soresu and Shien is that Soresu waits for an opening while letting the opponent wear themselves down, and Shien works to create an opening to exploit. Djem So, on the other hand, is not even remotely as reserved as either Soresu or Shien (which should really be its own style). Sure, Soresu on its own won't beat any other style, but only because it has no offensive moves. The thing is, that doesn't matter because every jedi learns form 1 before they can move on to another, which gives them the offensive options to utilize once their opponent gives them an opening. No duelist uses strictly a single style. Every time a Djem So user deflects blaster bolts, that's Soresu. Every time a Makashi user vaults over their opponent, that's Ataru. The point I'm making is that a Soresu specialist has an advantage over a Djem So specialist because they can outlast them every time, then utilize the offensive measures learned from form 1 to finish the job. The powerful swings Djem So requires are unequivocally more tiring than the subtle dodges and parry's of Soresu.

All that said, I need some help deciding if I should use a force user or a mercenary. :P

idk its your choice whichever to go with.

I agree with you on many things except I believe the wrestler to have the advantage. Having sparred both in real life the wrestler is much harder to deal with. I have grappling experience in a style that is much like aikido which is entirely skill based. The djem so user redirectin blaster bolts is not soresu it is shien the form that djem so derives from. I feel if the soresu user can manage for long enough he could have an advantage later. However the djem so user specializes in saber dueling and creating openings which makes me believe thatat the beginning and towards the middle of the fight he will have a distinct advantage. Not saying victory is absolute for either at any stage however as a style made for combat it is much better equipped for it. My real life example being Shotokan karate versus tai chi.

The wrestler being at a disadvantage isn't a belief, it's a fact backed up by real life. The guy that I train with has experience in both wrestling and Jiu Jitsu, and knows for a fact that Jiu Jitsu beats wrestling every time. The Gracie family (who more or less started MMA), took on all comers and wiped the floor with every single wrestler that stepped up to take the challenge. No one could beat them until the other fighters started picking up Jiu Jitsu. Power is nothing but a detriment if your opponent knows how to use it against you.

Edit: It's Shien that specializes in creating openings (which despite being under the same heading, isn't the same style as Djem So. There are too many differences), Djem So specializes in overwhelming your opponent with powerful strikes.

That is entirely untrue the Gracie family is much like Bruce Lee or Fujin who created shotokan. The style is not what makes someone a good fighter it is their determination and is all personal. Ive fought many MMA guys and many other styles and won, but that doesn't make them inferior. Jiu Jitsu while requiring finesse and skill uses some brute force as well. If you take two peak fighters a wrestler and a jiu jitsu specialist then they will be at relatively equal terms it all comes down to the fighter. Even if the man who you train with ahs experience in both it doesn't give him the final say in which is better only which he prefers. I have taken kenjutsu, Shotokan, taekwondo, hapkido, and boxing in my life time. I prefer karate with TKD elements however that doesn't mean a decent boxer cant break my guard and pummel me into the ground. All in all I believe that while it is usefull for long term combat Soresu is at a disadvantage at one on one saber combat against a djem so specialist. Also hey man this is a philosophical debate based on two nonexistent sword styles in the end it all comes down to the duelist and that's just reality.

Except that almost everything you learn in wrestling puts you in a position to be beaten by someone who knows Jiu Jitsu. Everything gets switched around and the stuff that works in wrestling just makes things easier for an opponent using Jiu Jitsu. That's simple fact coming from a guy trained in both. It's not the same thing as pitting a boxer against a Karate fighter. In that scenario, both opponents try to hit each other, and both can work equally well because one style isn't meant to capitalize on all the strengths of the other and turn them into weaknesses. That's how it is with Jiu Jitsu and wrestling. Everything good in wrestling becomes bad in Jiu Jitsu. Or most of it at least.

But yeah. Philosophical debate, more or less.

Posthumous edit: You're right, Gracie's didn't start MMA, I meant to say they started what would become the UFC.

Name- Bloodshot
Age- 35
Species- Umbaran
Gender- Male
Height- 6'6"
Weight- 220 lbs
Job- Bounty Hunter

Appearance:


Armor Capabilities:
Based heavily on the functionality of the Mark III Katarn-class Commando Armor, it shares many of the capabilities of its slightly older cousin, though still differs in several ways due to various personal modifications to the design. The most noticeable of these modifications (apart from the cosmetic overhaul) is the inclusion of grav-plates on the outer thighs and back for the placement and holding of various weaponry (most commonly pistols and melee weapons). Further modification comes in the form of two foot-long vibroblades mounted in the armor's gauntlets that slide into an active position over the back of Bloodshot's hands, and stygian tri-prismatic plating for increased durability, allowing the armor to withstand even the blade of a lightsaber for several seconds before being compromised. Other additions include thermal and electromagnetic imaging systems, penetrating radar for identifying hostiles through walls, floors, and ceilings, a holographic and tactical overlay, and modifications to the life support system that allow it to deliver doses of the potent gas mixture utilized by the Umbaran military to increase reflexes and aggression. Beneath the armor's hardened plating lies an armor-weave body glove that is insulated against both thermal and electrical attacks, as well as being capable of dissipating blaster bolts and even briefly resisting a lightsaber.

Abilities:
The legacy of the mercenary known as Bloodshot, a legacy that has passed through the hands of more than a dozen men, is more than simply the passing on of the armor and title. Through the use of ancient technology discovered on a long-dead planet, each successor to Bloodshot's legacy has not only received the wealth and possessions of his predecessors, but also the skills and memories they collected after assuming the title themselves. While this has given each successor a vast amount of experience and skills to draw from, it comes at the cost of their own memories, erasing everything prior to the time they first stepped into the machine. The current possessor of the title utilizes a combat style that favors pistols, blades, and staves of varying capabilities, with efficiency and speed taking precedence over the more showy techniques common to many of the galaxy's martial artists, including those favored by the jedi order. In addition to his mastery of firearms and melee combat, his Umbaran heritage also grants him a level of natural telepathic skill unrelated to the force-based talents of the jedi and sith. While this ability is less effective and versatile than that of jedi and sith that have dedicated their studies to developing the talent, it is nonetheless potent enough to give him the ability to read, subtly influence, and sometimes even control the will of others, in addition to granting him a high resistance to telepathic influence himself.

Physically, he is a prime specimen of his species, able to hoist 600 lbs above his head and sprint at speeds up to 30 mph. Even his reflexes have been honed near to perfection, with an average reaction time of 97ms. When his augmentations become factored into the equation, he gains the impressive ability to lift 1800 lbs, sprint at speeds approaching 90mph, and react to changing situations with a speed on the same level as the reflexes of any jedi.

Implants:
Cardio-Muscular Package
Skeletal Reinforcement

Weapons:
Collapsible Phrik Electrostaff
Vibrosword w/Ionite Edge
SH-9 Slugthrower Pistol [2, 15 round magazines, 4 reloads, depleted baradium rounds (armor piercing)]
AKraB Vibrodagger [2]
Gauntlet Vibroblade [2, 12-inch]
Spore/B Stun Grenade [4]

Note: All vibroweapons are made with cortosis weave.

Schradinger said
It's similar to how a Jiu Jitsu user is pretty much always going to beat a wrestler.

Hasn't catch wrestling been better against jiu jutsu when they've been matched up in the ring. Kazushi Sakuraba vs Royler Gracie, Renzo Gracie, Ryan Gracie, and Royce Gracie come to mind. Seems to me wrestling has good chance at beating jiu jutsu on the ground and everywhere else.

From what I can tell (though I'm definitely no expert, having only heard of it a few hours ago), catch wrestling differs little from Jiu Jitsu grappling as far as the principles behind them are concerned. The variation of wrestling I'm referring to is collegiate and high school wrestling.

Schradinger said
From what I can tell (though I'm definitely no expert, having only heard of it a few hours ago), catch wrestling differs little from Jiu Jitsu grappling as far as the principles behind them are concerned. The variation of wrestling I'm referring to is collegiate and high school wrestling.

Seeing as collegiate wrestling has origins in catch wrestling, I put it as a fair comparison when it comes to wrestling techniques. Hell, you could even argue that the sport is mostly entertainment nowadays, but it doesn't mean its unlikely to beat Jiu Jutsu person to the ground. Suplexes and leaping attacks are pretty effective if they land. Kazushi nearly smashed Royce face by jumping on him when Royce was curled up in a the fetal position.

-Double Post Deleted-

I see the forums love me today.

English has origins in french and spanish, yet I can understand neither of those languages. Nascar has origins in chariot racing, yet no one will argue that a team of horses can win a race against a superpowered car. Catch wrestling itself has origins in jujutsu and judo (apparently). Simply because one thing stemmed from another does not mean that the two things are comparatively similar. If Royce was curled up in a fetal position, he wasn't doing it right.

Just watched the Royler vs Kazushi fight. Kazushi didn't win because he was a wrestler, he won because he was a better grappler. Pioneers though they may be, the Gracie's stopped winning as soon as other fighters started learning grappling instead of wrestling. Kazushi wasn't trying to control Royler's entire body, all he needed was one arm. That's essentially what Jiu Jitsu boils down to. Can a wrestler beat a grappler? Yes, they can. Is it the most likely outcome? Not at all.

But all of this is entirely beside the point of this thread, which is to go to coruscant and kill each other. If someone wants to continue the wrestling vs grappling debate, by all means feel free to PM me.