Hidden 10 yrs ago 10 yrs ago Post by mdk
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My favorite historical figure isn't what you might call "Admirable," but it's the best bit of history you'll ever read... Tamerlane, the Mongol general who built an empire larger than Genghis Khan all by himself. Absolutely brutal to his enemies, beloved by his men, genius in his tactics, effective in strategy. He never lost a battle, and died enroute to China where he meant to re-establish the Golden Khanate (having subjugated and/or slaughtered civilizations in his wake). He was buried with the words "Who ever opens my tomb, shall unleash an invader more terrible than I." A Soviet archaeologist exhumed him in 1941, on the exact same day that Adolf Hitler commenced his invasion into Russia.

I wrote a kickass story about his victory at Delhi, but can't find it just now :/

edit: found it

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Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
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All of which is several generations of Great Khans after Genghis and irrelevant to the thread topic. The Khanate managed on in a fairly stable climate until about Kublai Khan and the three Khanates in the Khagan began to develop a more independent power structure by the 14th century. The Illkhanate adopting Islam, the Chinese territories establishing the Yuan dynasty (which would reign for about a modest hundred years), and the Golden Horde doing whatever the hell it wanted. But prior to the death of Kublai and even after the death of Genghis Khan these groups within the Empire were integrated units of the larger Mongolian politic.

The succession from Genghis to his sons, and his sons to their sons weren't anarchy as you're trying to describe. And the entities of the greater Empire as described were all the same elector powers for the appointment of future Great Khans.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
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Tamerlane, the Mongol general who built an empire larger than Genghis Khan all by himself.


Umm...

Timur's Empire.


The Empire of Genghis Khan at his passing


The Empire after several generations up to Kublai Khan


And Timur sort of shot himself in his aready gimped foot that he rarely left an administration for his own benefit anyways. He just sort of straight up leveled everything and took whatever could be moved for himself. Unlike Genghis and his sons who set up administrations in the lands that surrendered or they subjugated.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Sabotage
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The Mongol Empire proved to be much too large for Genghis Khan's remaining sons to administer. This is why the nation itself split off into separate controlled areas by which each of his sons had control off. Prior to this, sibling feuds had become a common thing between them anyway, so it's not hard to believe that anarchy took place in between the time of the Khans death, and before they split during very late years this empire existed. These regions held out on their own for a limited amount of time before falling in a matter of years that were rather petty compared to that of what Genghis Khan formed. The Yuan dynasty was one of the new growing powers within China, really a signal of death to where the Mongol Empire would end, seeing as the Chinese already began seizing smaller parts of southern Mongolia, cutting them off more.
Hidden 10 yrs ago 10 yrs ago Post by Dinh AaronMk
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The Mongol Empire proved to be much too large for Genghis Khan's remaining sons to administer. This is why the nation itself split off into separate controlled areas by which each of his sons had control off. Prior to this, sibling feuds had become a common thing between them anyway, so it's not hard to believe that anarchy took place in between the time of the Khans death, and before they split during very late years this empire existed. These regions held out on their own for a limited amount of time before falling in a matter of years that were rather petty compared to that of what Genghis Khan formed. The Yuan dynasty was one of the new growing powers within China, really a signal of death to where the Mongol Empire would end, seeing as the Chinese already began seizing smaller parts of southern Mongolia, cutting them off more.


You're operating on unfounded assumption which doesn't have merit in a discussion like this.

The succession between Ogedei from Genghis Khan was painless as opposed to the fifteen years of succession crisis that followed Timur in his later Empire. His brothers Jochi and Chagatai both supported the ascension of Ogedei and their father's wishes. Once more Jochi died of natural causes so he wouldn't have ever been an issue. Chagatai held his own khanate below his brother.

You don't really get an attempt at seizing the Khanate against the proclamation by the Mongol elective council - the kurultai - until Mongke when Genghis Khan's last brother Temuge tried to take it. But the effort was so lapse and minor that it's hardly a military crisis on how little conflict there is on it; unlike the attempted succession of Timur if I might re-iterate which resulted in 15 years of violence and the loss of Samarkand and other territories.

The first actual "civil war" is with Kublai Khan. But by this point the Empire had lapsed so much it didn't matter anymore. By this point Kublai was already the Emperor of China. And by the time of Kublai Khan any and all direct relatives of Genghis Khan were dead.

You can't presume, "There could have been violence". Because you're just showing your cards you aren't even trying.
Hidden 10 yrs ago 10 yrs ago Post by mdk
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snip

It seems I misplaced a digit. Was thinking 17 million instead of 1.7 million square miles, and that would've been bigger (because idunno, mercator or something, point is I was wrong). His area of influence was much bigger than the actual territory, but then, I guess you could say the same about Genghis -- but I mean, when you can raze Delhi, your empire does, in all practicality, include all of India. He did the same to the Ottomans, and enjoyed total control over most neighbors.

My point being this dude was the man. One of the best killers in history (singlehandedly exterminated 5% of the world's population, if you buy the estimates), and there's some x-files-level creepy supernatural shit surrounding his life and death.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Sabotage
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<Snipped quote by Sabotage>

You're operating on unfounded assumption which doesn't have merit in a discussion like this.

The succession between Ogedei from Genghis Khan was painless as opposed to the fifteen years of succession crisis that followed Timur in his later Empire. His brothers Jochi and Chagatai both supported the ascension of Ogedei and their father's wishes. Once more Jochi died of natural causes so he wouldn't have ever been an issue. Chagatai held his own khanate below his brother.

You don't really get an attempt at seizing the Khanate against the proclamation by the Mongol elective council - the kurultai - until Mongke when Genghis Khan's last brother Temuge tried to take it. But the effort was so lapse and minor that it's hardly a military crisis on how little conflict there is on it; unlike the attempted succession of Timur if I might re-iterate which resulted in 15 years of violence and the loss of Samarkand and other territories.

The first actual "civil war" is with Kublai Khan. But by this point the Empire had lapsed so much it didn't matter anymore. By this point Kublai was already the Emperor of China. And by the time of Kublai Khan any and all direct relatives of Genghis Khan were dead.

You can't presume, "There could have been violence". Because you're just showing your cards you aren't even trying.


Jochi was out of the question at this time, and has no relevance to the topic. You are misinterpreting my last post by filling the separation of Genghis Khan's sons into what I supposedly described as violence. That is not true. Because of the divided nation between the remaining Khan's sons, there was an absence of order for a short period, but nothing along the scale of a civil war or military disaster.

Kublai's conflict with his younger brother was quite insignificant at the time. If that wasn't enough, Temur being the successor of the Yuan Dynasty in the late 1200's would sign the death of the Mongolians. Shortly after the Yuan Dynasty fell, it was of course replaced by the Ming Dynasty, only about two years after the death of Temur.

Between that period and after involved very minor conflict, if not, none at all. Just the continuing process of an inevitable shrinking of the Mongol empire.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Vinny
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Meanwhile, a Vinperson appears.

I happen to be a fan of Henry the 8th and what remained of the Tudor dynasty after he finally succumbed to his madness and persistent illness. He was a guy who couldn't take no for an answer, and went so far as to spit in the then-corrupt church's face and create his own religion just to get a divorce. Despite that, the Church of England still exists today, and he and his predecessors gave Protestants a huge leg-up against the Catholicism that needed a massive reformation at the time. He's one of England's most memorable kings for a reason, and it isn't just for his dead wives! Queen Elizabeth was one of the most influential queens... well. Ever. Not too bad for being the daughter of "The Great Whore", huh? ~_^
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Casimir III the Great, for his Extreme Home Makeover: Poland Edition.
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Otto Van Bismarck and Winston Churchill.

because reasons.
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King John, King of England. The best king of England!
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Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Vilageidiotx
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King John, King of England. The best king of England!


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Dick Cheney, if they could only clone him faster then a Xerox machine.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by mdk
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I'm pretty sure Iron Dick is more machine now than man, and what's left of him will never die.
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