<Snipped quote by Zurnt>

except this type of book has always existed.

i hate it because it presents abusive sexual assault as romance.

Okay, but if a character views sexual assault as romance (you see this a lot in mystery/police type books), is it so bad to have that character? I love to write, and one of the villains in a manuscript I wrote is a sexual predator. I'm not, of course, but the character is. And said character is integral to my story because without his actions, the characters wouldn't have grown up to be who they were. The story doesn't revolve around this as a "love story," I'll grant you that, HOWEVER, one person in my story does feel that way.

Which leads into my next question--you read books for a living? Are you a publisher? Or an editor? Would you maybe be interested in reading something that ISN'T a love story, but more suspense/thriller type story with some horror elements to it?

Okay, but if a character views sexual assault as romance (you see this a lot in mystery/police type books), is it so bad to have that character? I love to write, and one of the villains in a manuscript I wrote is a sexual predator. I'm not, of course, but the character is. And said character is integral to my story because without his actions, the characters wouldn't have grown up to be who they were. The story doesn't revolve around this as a "love story," I'll grant you that, HOWEVER, one person in my story does feel that way.

Which leads into my next question--you read books for a living? Are you a publisher? Or an editor? Would you maybe be interested in reading something that ISN'T a love story, but more suspense/thriller type story with some horror elements to it?

I agree with this. It's not always the person who is a pervert or has ridiculous fantasies in real life. Just lustful people with nothing better to do than come up with perverse and disgusting things and turn them into sexual scenarios.

It's the mark of a GOOD author who can live their life and separate them from their writing, instead of dragging too much of what's in their head into the story. Again, "lustful people with nothing better to do" are the ones writing these.

Also, as a side note, I can confirm that @LoneSilverWolf is NOT such a person. I should know.

The difference is you guys are talking about novels with plots, where amoral things are part of some larger story. I've written about rape, castration, mass murder, the mutilation of children, but all in the context of war and political disorder. What Taaj is talking about is the type of romance novel where the relationship is the entire plot, and the entire point of the story is to titillate. It's more the literary equivalent of porn, where the plot is just a device to show the sexual stuff, rather than the sexual stuff being a method to advance the plot.

So, in that context, writing a rape fantasy to titillate is fucked up.

30% of women sexually fantasize about rape. "Rape culture" doesn't have anything to so with it: rape just turns a lot of women on. The people who write these books are just catering to their audience of women who daydream about being forcefully taken on the kitchen table. I don't think that makes them terrible people.

I think part of the problem here is the dichotomy between fantasy and reality.

Saying that people fantasise about rape is nonsensical; rape is by definition non-consensual, and if one chooses of their own free will to fantasise (for pleasure) about being "raped" then what they are imagining isn't truly rape. They willingly engage in the fantasy. That's not rape; rape is about control and it is not something you can choose to participate in or not. The fantasy might include some power play elements but in the end the one fantasising is entirely in control of every tiny thing about the situation, which couldn't be further removed from the reality of rape.

It's very rare that erotic literature involving this kind of "rape" will actually depict the victim resisting, saying no, crying, or otherwise reacting negatively too much. Usually it's depicted simply as an initial reluctance that gradually fades. Consent is merely dubious, rather than outright not present, at first, and is rapidly given once things start moving ("becoming pliant", in the book's terms...) Not to say that all rape victims scream and cry in the real world, but they certainly don't... ugh, "become pliant", i.e. turned on and willing. Anyone who has experienced rape or sexual assault or has had some proper heart-to-hearts with someone who has will tell you: that's not how it works. Although in a fantasy your body might react pleasurably to the initial dubious-consent scenario, thus facilitating the fantasy and the consent being given soon after, the reality of having someone force themself onto you means you'd be drier than the Sahara/softer than cream cheese. Again, the dichotomy of fantasy and reality comes into play; what people are imagining isn't rape, it only looks like it.

Personally this is my greatest hatred of books like 50 Shades. It trivialises and normalises what rape, sexual assault, and emotional abuse victims have been through. Having unfortunately had an abundance of experience with all of those things myself and through a depressingly high portion of my (particularly female, honestly) friends, I couldn't loathe it any more.

And furthermore, they are usually badly written.

Any of the rest of you guys, pick up a cheap romance novel next time you are at a grocery store or wal-mart. One of those ones with an attractive couple, the guy wearing no shirt, and both of them dressed up in some stereotypical costume. Flip through it. If you doubt your own writing ability, that is all it will take to make you feel better.

Though seriously, I had took a writing class years ago where the teacher explained to us how those chain-produced romance novels work. They send you a packet that tells you what to write and how to write it. It's color-by-numbers literature. She said that a lot of semi-famous authors write those under assumed names as a way to collect some extra cash.

I was listening to an NPR interview with a guy whose dad (and mom as editor or something) wrote pornographic novels to the same effect. His dad would legit have a card catalog of descriptions, plot types, and other things that he would basically stitch together to form a novel which he'd sell.

He didn't find out until after the fact and I think he said when his dad was either very old or dying he'd claim he invented the modern erotica genre; although he takes that with a bit of salt since something like fifty other people claimed the same and no one could tell anyone else otherwise.

It was fucking magical.