@MelonHead

Spawning fire on even some of my most basic characters wouldn’t be that much of a threat and it’s not because of strength. Some are better at combating it than others. Like some people say guns are overpowered but an easy counter to them is an advanced view of perception. If you have outterworldy eye sight you can judge the trajectory of any bullet before the shot is even fired out the nozzle.

Personally, I think using what you identified as “Non interactive” attacks are broken rather they just take skillful and considerate roleplayers to execute properly. When it's done right threads are really fun to read as they tend not to become a dodge-fest where no one gets hit or hurt.

@Liaison, isn't entirely off the mark. Albeit, things get a lot more... Tricky when you start talking about dodging things that go beyond a certain speed - even if you have superior eyesight. Likewise, I understand what Liaison is getting at in response to your discussion of non-interactive attacks, @MelonHead. I believe this really boils down to communication between those involved. I recall when I first started out with combat role-playing that I encountered a situation where my character was described as being thrown into the bottom of a spacecraft flying overhead, then slammed into some sludge on the ground... Granted, the entire thread was to be judged upon the conclusion of the fight to see the overall victor, but I just could not wrap my head around someone else doing that. What I took away from it, however, was that I required better communication with those I am sparring with... And that such situations just push my creative talents to a new level... Simply because I myself aim to never do something like that on my end unless it serves to further the narrative and has been agreed upon by those participating in the thread ahead of time.

@ImportantNobodyI'll stand by to accept you on that offer!

@MelonHead

Spawning fire on even some of my most basic characters wouldn’t be that much of a threat and it’s not because of strength. Some are better at combating it than others. Like some people say guns are overpowered but an easy counter to them is an advanced view of perception. If you have outterworldy eye sight you can judge the trajectory of any bullet before the shot is even fired out the nozzle.

Personally, I think using what you identified as “Non interactive” attacks are broken rather they just take skillful and considerate roleplayers to execute properly. When it's done right threads are really fun to read as they tend not to become a dodge-fest where no one gets hit or hurt.

I don't think you fully appreciate what being in a fire does to the majority of characters, then, to be honest. If someone can cause fire to ignite the air around you, your lungs will incinerate from the inside, your eyeballs will melt, your skin will melt, your clothes will ignite and you will asphyxiate and you will die painfully and in some cases immediately. Perhaps your basic characters aren't in anyway linked to real life physics, or perhaps you underestimate how bad it is to be directly inside a fire.

I've already said that fire alone isn't necessarily going to be super effective if used at the higher tiers, but the ability to generate it directly on a person is still broken in Arena combat in the majority of circumstances. Not every higher tier character is going to be inherently immune to burning to death, and as that's the only reasonable way to survive if you're suddenly and inexplicably engulfed in fire, it becomes non-interactive.

As for your gun example, people believe guns are overpowered because they share a wide range of similarities with non-interactive powers at the majority of power levels. It's only as you move out of the medium power level into the higher power levels that you have characters that can reliably dodge bullets, so you're left with pre-empting the pull of a trigger. The problem with this is that the speed at which people can aim and fire reliably increases with the speed at which characters can dodge and perceive actions. At the level your character is capable of avoiding a firearm, your opponent is going to have similar supernatural advantages, unless you agree that a firearm is unbalanced and that only an ordinary human should be allowed to use them at that power level. In reality, it takes no effort to simply point a gun in someone's direction, and with that you have cut off their ability to move in a wide range of fashions. Using guns is easy in arena combat, because no one ever misses their target. Also, when you actually translate what a firearm can do to cold-hard statistics, you would be highly dubious of a magical power capable of the same feat.

I think that personally if you need to rely on an attack your opponent couldn't conceivably avoid in any fashion, they just have to take it, then you're probably not a very good fighter to begin with. The entire point of the Arena is to manoeuvre your opponent into a situation where you can land the hits, disable their characters over time, back them into a corner and then finish them off. I don't really see any merit in 'My character incinerates the air around your own, this will result in your immediate death.'

Then again, I may be biased because I think the higher tiers are pretty worthless as Arena fights, they only really serve as fun mess around battles. There's no real skill involved at those levels, other than in writing interesting scenes of combat. You can only really have skill in a fight that is still at least partially grounded in real world logic. This is just been my experience over the years, but as the largest arena tournament currently being run has been and is run at the lower power levels, I think that pretty much speaks for itself.

I suppose what I'm saying is I completely disagree with everything you said, but you're entitled to your opinion.

I believe this really boils down to communication between those involved. I recall when I first started out with combat role-playing that I encountered a situation where my character was described as being thrown into the bottom of a spacecraft flying overhead, then slammed into some sludge on the ground... Granted, the entire thread was to be judged upon the conclusion of the fight to see the overall victor, but I just could not wrap my head around someone else doing that. What I took away from it, however, was that I required better communication with those I am sparring with... And that such situations just push my creative talents to a new level... Simply because I myself aim to never do something like that on my end unless it serves to further the narrative and has been agreed upon by those participating in the thread ahead of time.

That's a special level of rule-breaking. There's non-interactive attacks and then there's literally force hitting your opponent, which is not allowed at all here in the main fighting system we use. My points about non-interactive attacks is that they're akin to force hitting, because they don't offer your opponent any further option than 'well, that magic attack you pulled out your ass does exactly what you said it did, guess I lose.' In the vast majority of situations.

@MelonHead You are biased. That you have made clear but its not something I take offense to. Usually negative views on high tier combat derive from bad past experiences. I assume you had many and its very common since its so easy to abuse them. I've played against characters who can manipulate matter. It's pretty fun under the right rules but I digress. I also enjoy hand to hand and "semi realistic" styles of fighting and I can see the pleasure in both.

While lower tiers of combat require more understanding of the physical limits of the human body it doesn't compare to the overall amount of knowledge needed to fight competently when large scales of powers are involved. Someone could be throwing Psuedo science at you in one fight and then testing your ability to counter fantasy magic in another. It is simply the more unpredictable and entertaining experience in my opinion.

I'm not trying to debate over specific examples due to myself being on a phone currently but I'd be more than happy to introduce you to some of the themes I've worked with and how they can be used to tell stories which lower powers cannot necessarily replicate. Maybe we can even have a spar later on.

@Liaison

From my experience, low tier fights usually conclude much more quickly than high tier ones. When you have two human blokes with chainsaws, someone is bound to die very quickly.

There are so many more creative factors in higher tier matches, and to me it becomes less about raw competitive skill, and more about just having a fucking ball throwing around the craziest shit you can think of. Really letting loose, if you catch my drift. Yes, there are always strategic elements and exceptions... But on the whole, high tier matches are a riot. You don't usually have to worry about being one-shotted.

@Doc Doctor I've seen quite a few one shots in my day but that's stories for sometime else. I can assure you its the same level of spirit in terms of competing but yes, whipping up wild manuevers is pretty fun I must say. You got me on that one I admit. Its preference at the end of the day though of course. I'm interested in both styles so I don't want to rile up too many people here lol.

@MelonHead You are biased. That you have made clear but its not something I take offense to. Usually negative views on high tier combat derive from bad past experiences. I assume you had many and its very common since its so easy to abuse them. I've played against characters who can manipulate matter. It's pretty fun under the right rules but I digress. I also enjoy hand to hand and "semi realistic" styles of fighting and I can see the pleasure in both.

While lower tiers of combat require more understanding of the physical limits of the human body it doesn't compare to the overall amount of knowledge needed to fight competently when large scales of powers are involved. Someone could be throwing Psuedo science at you in one fight and then testing your ability to counter fantasy magic in another. It is simply the more unpredictable and entertaining experience in my opinion.

I'm not trying to debate over specific examples due to myself being on a phone currently but I'd be more than happy to introduce you to some of the themes I've worked with and how they can be used to tell stories which lower powers cannot necessarily replicate. Maybe we can even have a spar later on.

Oh no, most higher tier fights I've had were pretty fun. They're completely stress free, absolutely pointless though. They always looked cool, but the characters were shit, no human can portray a near omnipotent being in a convincing fashion, almost everyone falls laughably short. Also, you don't really need to know jack-shit about physics or how physical combat actually works to write higher tier battles, in fact, you'd be wasting your time even trying to apply real world physics with such powerful characters. That usually tells in the end, as the person with the biggest dick comes out on top, rather than the person who clearly knows what they're doing and put some forethought into their moves.

I'd rather see smart play rewarded, I'd rather see fights grounded in real world logic, I'd rather see characters that are portrayed in a convincing manner and are interesting to read in the medium of combat. Higher tier fights can be pretty fun, but they're still quite often shit.

Doc, that is only the case if the two characters are piss-poorly equipped for actual combat, stupid, or carrying guns. Besides which, ordinary humans can only carry out so many actions in a short period of time, every post tends to cover just a few seconds of time, so a fight that lasts thirty seconds, relatively short by movie standards, is still covering fifteen posts of action from both sides.

If two people who knew what they were doing somehow got into a fight with chainsaws (evidently they don't know what they're doing for bringing such a shit weapon into a fight) the only thing likely is that their chainsaws collide and both break. That doesn't strike me as a fight that's going to end quickly, unless neither cares about actually living. I know some people fight like that, because they forget their characters aren't suicidal.

Unless they all are, who knows.

@MelonHead

Hey, maybe it's just me then. I do love high risk/high reward. I'd imagine that it is possible to go either way depending on how confident one player is on their ability to get a fast kill.

Typically though, I see folks playing up high tiers to be extra durable, hence longer fights. Clock a man in the jaw real good and he goes down. Watch two superheroes have an exchange, they shrug it off with perhaps but a moderate bruise to show.

@MelonHead

Hey, maybe it's just me then. I do love high risk/high reward. I'd imagine that it is possible to go either way depending on how confident one player is on their ability to get a fast kill.

Typically though, I see folks playing up high tiers to be extra durable, hence longer fights. Clock a man in the jaw real good and he goes down. Watch two superheroes have an exchange, they shrug it off with perhaps but a moderate bruise to show.

Well, that's more of a fictional thing. People tend to be just as durable as they need to be for the most satisfying cinematic or narrative experience. In reality, some people are extraordinarily tough, even without armour. They carry a lot of mass and muscle and know how to roll with the punches and that's where you get twelve round boxing matches or absolute brawls in MMA matches, two trained fighters hitting as hard as they can, neither going down.

In other words, there's no particular reason why a low tier fight has to end after one or two blows. Maybe you're fighting unarmed, in which case the human body can take a lot of punishment, maybe you're fighting with weapons, in which case you should really have some armour.

@MelonHeadYour entire demeanor is that of someone who has had bad experiences(or at least seen a few?) and you allude to that even in your previous statement but I’ll take your word for it that you haven’t had many. I will say this however. Whether you personally see a style of fighting as completely pointless due to your own experiences is entirely irrelevant. You essentially say that you do not personally take high tier bouts seriously and that’s fine. Just don’t try to justify the reason to why as it can’t be done any other way. It’s somewhat lazy and disrespectful to people who put in the effort to play and participate in stories that involve those level of feats.

If you box in characters as shit because you personally do not see it possible to play them at a high skill that is entirely on you. They take skill, knowledge of physics, logic (especially) and forethought, just a type you are not currently aware of or maybe had the pleasure of being introduced to. They are not how you stated often “Shit.” Then again, if that’s what you normally see it’s not my place to tell you that’s not what you have been exposed to because that’s possible as well.

I’m not trying to say one form is better than the other though I have my preference. I want to remind you of that. I am simply defending a form of fighting that you try to pit as inferior. My entire point and the moral of the story I’m trying to convey is do not generalize high tier level fights negatively.

And yes Doctor, superhero level combat is sometimes comparable to high tier fights. Some characters do not go down after a solid blow and that’s a part of the challenge but after a back and forth of several posts it would be clear who was doing constant damage and winning a fight. That could be used in a judgment and that’s only if it’s needed at that point.

@MelonHeadYour entire demeanor is that of someone who has had bad experiences(or at least seen a few?) and you allude to that even in your previous statement but I’ll take your word for it that you haven’t had many. I will say this however. Whether you personally see a style of fighting as completely pointless due to your own experiences is entirely irrelevant. You essentially say that you do not personally take high tier bouts seriously and that’s fine. Just don’t try to justify the reason to why as it can’t be done any other way. It’s somewhat lazy and disrespectful to people who put in the effort to play and participate in stories that involve those level of feats.

It would be irrelevant if I didn't explain in a fashion you haven't actually refuted why I believe its pointless. You just told me 'actually you do need to know all that stuff to fight at such an advanced level.'

Why do you need an advanced knowledge of physics at higher power levels? Characters at this level by their very nature bend and break the laws of physics, they are naturally outside of it. Give me an example of how your advanced knowledge of physics has allowed you to gain a credible advantage in a fight at higher levels?

How do you determine the skill of two competitors at a level of combat where there is no reasonable way to ground the fight in real world logic? In the real world, people have a set number of limbs, gravity acts upon them, there are only certain moves that work, there is a limited time-frame in which they can act, react, there are restrictions on their sensory capacity. You could reward someone for effectively using cover, for blinding an opponent, for misdirection. There is no way to do these things at a level of power where human physical restrictions are completely non-existent, this is the level of power I refer to as 'shit' for determining skill in combat. Every character at this level can sense actions around them, they use magic rather than physical actions, they are not reliant on restrictive biological sensory capacity, and more importantly, they have a range of magical powers they can pull from that offers them a solution to almost every problem they can encounter with a flick of their wrist.

If you box in characters as shit because you personally do not see it possible to play them at a high skill that is entirely on you. They take skill, knowledge of physics, logic (especially) and forethought, just a type you are not currently aware of or maybe had the pleasure of being introduced to. They are not how you stated often “Shit.” Then again, if that’s what you normally see it’s not my place to tell you that’s not what you have been exposed to because that’s possible as well.

It's not just I that do this, if you were to actually look, you'd find a vast number of people are critical of characters at higher power levels when they are made the 'main character' or the 'hero'. The main example, Superman, most people consider his power-set the worst thing about him as a character. There's a good reason why Batman is widely preferred to Superman, and it's not just because he appeals to everyone's inner edge-lord. They like the fact that he is human, and out-thinks his opponents (with a little bit of plot convenience, of course.)

And I agree with them, Batman is the more interesting character because he does have to think his way through problems that Superman can lazer through, punch through, fly through, tank out, freeze, whatever.

Anyway, as I said, my opinion, but not an uncommon one either.

In other words, there's no particular reason why a low tier fight has to end after one or two blows. Maybe you're fighting unarmed, in which case the human body can take a lot of punishment, maybe you're fighting with weapons, in which case you should really have some armour.

I'd imagine a straight shot to the jaw would take even a trained fighter down if another trained fighter of equal skill delivered it (note how I didn't mention how said opponent would handle the punch, as I'm not actively trying to reason out how one character can evade or alleviate the damage of a punch, which is a whole different matter), in a reasonable roleplay. I'm not talking about pure skill and how it can change the tide of battle. Skill is an assumed constant. That's just one scenario one that I proposed initially. The addition of armor changes the circumstances. Regardless, a blade through a joint can end a fight as quickly as a blow to the jaw. Superhuman characters tend to be able to tank what normally would be lethal otherwise, via enhanced durability or other means.

<Snipped quote by MelonHead>

I'd imagine a straight shot to the jaw would take even a trained fighter down if another trained fighter of equal skill delivered it (note how I didn't mention how said opponent would handle the punch, as I'm not actively trying to reason out how one character can evade or alleviate the damage of a punch, which is a whole different matter), in a reasonable roleplay. I'm not talking about pure skill and how it can change the tide of battle. Skill is an assumed constant. That's just one scenario one that I proposed initially. The addition of armor changes the circumstances. Regardless, a blade through a joint can end a fight as quickly as a blow to the jaw. Superhuman characters tend to be able to tank what normally would be lethal otherwise, via enhanced durability or other means.

Your point was that a fight is over quicker at lower tier levels, though if you believe that because you can physically disable a human by delivering a super precise and powerful blow, that's faulty reasoning. A human being could also be disabled very quickly by punching them as hard as you can in the throat or being kicked in the bollocks, but the likelihood of a blow like that landing clean in the first few seconds of a fight between two roughly equally skilled fighters who are aware they are fighting is almost non-existent, especially in the narrative format of an arena fight.

Besides which, there are plenty of examples of non-super-humans (unless you believe Shaolin monks to be superhuman, which is perhaps a matter of debate) taking blows exactly like that without being incapacitated. The danger of a blow of that kind is that it rocks the brain in the skull, rendering the person unconscious, but it is never a sure fire knock out. In fact, it rarely is at the higher levels of combat sport, unless the fighter in question is one with a 'glass' jaw. Its notable enough (being vulnerable to that sort of strike) that there is a name for it, and therefore a high likelihood that some people are quite the opposite and can take it.

Here, wikipedia talks about it. In ordinary people, who don't fight for a living, you might be right. But Arena combat is seldom about ordinary people scrapping, and when it is, it's rarely got one person who can deliver a pin-point knock out blow to the chin against a man who can't.

Fights in the real world are often quick because of a huge skill disparity, or luck. Neither of which should really be a factor in arena fights, which are more like formalised duels in structure.

@MelonHead

Perhaps this is all just conjecture based upon our own personal experiences. For me and from what I've seen, low tier fights end more quickly on the whole. But, go back and read what I said more closely. You're missing the point I'm getting at, nay, skipping entirely over it. If you catch my drift, then mayhaps if you want to, your next post can address what I had actually been typing.

@MelonHead

Perhaps this is all just conjecture based upon our own personal experiences. For me and from what I've seen, low tier fights end more quickly on the whole. But, go back and read what I said more closely. You're missing the point I'm getting at, nay, skipping entirely over it. If you catch my drift, then mayhaps if you want to, your next post can address what I had actually been typing.

I think maybe you missed what I was saying, also. What I'm getting at is that it's all relative, superheroes shrug off blows from other superheroes, humans shrug off blows from other humans, neither fight has to end with only a very brief exchange of blows, superheroes can also manifest powers of greater lethality than weapons humans conventionally use to overcome supernaturally durability. Humans compensate with tools, if you give a human a knife to end a fight quicker, you should give the other a chain vest. All things being equal.

It's all relative.

'People tend to be just as durable as they need to be for the most satisfying cinematic or narrative experience.'

True at any power level.

@MelonHead

My point was that skill is a constant that I consider separate from character strengths, and I'm assuming that said direct hits are guaranteed to land and land hard. But eh, why not. Just why the hell not. Anything is possible in our fine Arena and beyond. Whether a character can sneeze away galaxies or struggle to bench a few hundred pounds, either may be taken out by an adversary with a heavy enough lean in firepower, and alternatively either may survive a good while whether by way of boxing skills or force fields. I have my experiences, you have yours.

@melonhead“It would be irrelevant if I didn't explain in a fashion you haven't actually refuted why I believe its pointless. You just told me 'actually you do need to know all that stuff to fight at such an advanced level.'

Why do you need an advanced knowledge of physics at higher power levels? Characters at this level by their very nature bend and break the laws of physics, they are naturally outside of it. Give me an example of how your advanced knowledge of physics has allowed you to gain a credible advantage in a fight at higher levels?”

Well, here’s an example that will give you a clue on what I’m talking about since you cant seem to fathom it for some reason. Here is how I took on someone with almost impenetrable armor with loads of built in defenses that essentially deflected most forms of energy and force. (His armor far more intricate than I described btw)

Most people would say “wow that’s broken” but I figured if I could find away around his proudest defense it would insure me a critical hit. The way my opponent portrayed his character was that of a proud, powerful and arrogant being who wanted to show off how strong his armor was. My character was relatively human and for the most part was at disadvantage. My strategy for tackling his defense was one that required some knowledge of how atoms work. I came up with the idea of powered rounds of a gun that applied the effect of molecular dissipation.

Here is a brief description of Molecular Dissipation. It is the ability to cause solid objects to lose their molecular cohesion by absorbing the energy within their atomic bonds. Thus making objects disappear.

My character didn’t have the ability to do that with his body so I added it to an external force, a projectile.

I knew my opponent did not believe a gun was a threat to him and so I abused it. What this means is when the bullets met his armor instead of being deflected they absorbed the energy within the atomic bonds of whatever they touched which, in this case was his armor. Using logic, no matter how powerful his armor was it did not defend against the absorbing of the energy in atoms. As a result once seemingly invincible armor was now at threat to be penetrated and his character was at risk of taking bullets straight to the body.

The goal was to simply put bullet holes in the target but I needed a little pseudo-science to do so. I used my knowledge to add finesse to what would be the otherwise straight forward tactic.

“How do you determine the skill of two competitors at a level of combat where there is no reasonable way to ground the fight in real world logic? In the real world, people have a set number of limbs, gravity acts upon them, there are only certain moves that work, there is a limited time-frame in which they can act, react, there are restrictions on their sensory capacity. You could reward someone for effectively using cover, for blinding an opponent, for misdirection. There is no way to do these things at a level of power where human physical restrictions are completely non-existent, this is the level of power I refer to as 'shit' for determining skill in combat. Every character at this level can sense actions around them, they use magic rather than physical actions, they are not reliant on restrictive biological sensory capacity, and more importantly, they have a range of magical powers they can pull from that offers them a solution to almost every problem they can encounter with a flick of their wrist.”

I assure you all the rules you apply in lower tier fights are the same as high. Here’s what I mean. The simple rules of no Godmoding, Metagaming and Powergaming still apply. Its not like they disappear. You cant control another person character, the amount of damage they take is on them unless you have a logical claim and you cant just overpower and demean others peoples powers because you think you’re “stronger” everything is logic based still. In the case of the armor he couldn’t say his armor would just deflect it because I provided a logical counter which forced him lose faith in his armor and have to evade out of fear of taking lethal blows.

Also in addition knowing everything that’s going to happen is metagaming and will certainly lose you tons of points in a fight via judgment or may get you hit yourself via logic because you have no way to respond. People who ass-pull to a degree aren’t very good and thus lose a lot in these type of fights. It can happen on all levels like I said before.

“It's not just I that do this, if you were to actually look, you'd find a vast number of people are critical of characters at higher power levels when they are made the 'main character' or the 'hero'. The main example, Superman, most people consider his power-set the worst thing about him as a character. There's a good reason why Batman is widely preferred to Superman, and it's not just because he appeals to everyone's inner edge-lord. They like the fact that he is human, and out-thinks his opponents (with a little bit of plot convenience, of course.)

And I agree with them, Batman is the more interesting character because he does have to think his way through problems that Superman can lazer through, punch through, fly through, tank out, freeze, whatever.

Anyway, as I said, my opinion, but not an uncommon one either.”

Superman has no personality so of course he’s boring. I prefer Batman was well but that has nothing to do with Clark Kent. With your logic the comic the Infinity Gauntlet would be as uninteresting as it could be, no? It is entirely possible powerful beings can have extensive back stories and lore’s that would be a pleasure to read.(Ex:Darkseid & Dormammu) Also even characters like Galactus, The Living Tribunal and Thanos have losses at the end of the day as well. Strength is not a indicator of less interesting themes.

In addition lets take into account that when Superman fights opponents such as Doomsday, Darkseid and Mongul those tend to be extremely interesting bouts and those beings have vast wells of power. Its because the villians are examples of interesting high powered beings. Lets go back to Darkseid. I find his backstory to be really interesting because he like many rp characters I’ve seen grew to that strength. It was a progress. A lot of these extremely powerful RP characters I’m referring to have become stronger from assets they acquired from thread to thread in one continuing story.

Anyways, I’m about done going back and forth (at least for now). I just wanted to give an alternate view point to the high powered bashing that was going on because I think it would be good if both forms of fighting thrived here. I really mean that. A healthy debate hurts no one at the end of the day.

@Liaison@MelonHead

I'm afraid none of us can win this debate.

You see...

Harambe has already claimed victory.