@Penny

In address prior to this current change of conversation.

I would not put the various choices of sexuality under the same scrutiny and social battle as segregation or its clearly related struggles of interracial marriage. That comparison is so far off in scope that to equate the two is to demean a huge number of people who had legitimate grievances and experienced actual suffering and legally backed discrimination, despite being no different than skin tone. Members who suffer from sexual dysphoria are not treated as some rate of second class citizens because of their condition or personal orientations; they receive the exact same treatment as anyone else across the board. It goes without saying that they can engage in their activities covertly while race, the very comparison this was made against, simply cannot.

The issue with acceptability is not that they are different, but that a great number of them among their relatively small percentage of the actual population are demanding concessions, or in other words, that everyone else be willing to play by their rules... rather than them doing so themselves.

The answer to that is no. We all as persons give and take to play by societal rules if we wish to engage with the general population that surrounds us; we have the option not to and I myself am a prime example of that so I actively avoid other people. It is not the duty of the majority of people to answer to the minority when that group is already receiving fair treatment as human beings. I do not owe someone the "courtesy" of having to apologize for "mislabeling" their sexuality or using the wrong pronoun out of the great number that now exist. If one's personal code or condition is so flimsy that it legitimately hurts them beyond their adult ability to press on through conversational or interactive slights, then perhaps it is them who is wrong.

No less, it shows exceedingly poorly that so many of these people are characterized and personified by some of the least respectable human beings on this planet who also happen to be the most vocal. Not because of their sexuality, but because they use it as a weapon, a source of shielding through victimhood, and a tool to make themselves be "unique" or "different" from everyone else for the sake of attention and followers. I will restate that I care nothing, and I do mean nothing, about others' sexuality, but I cease being so tranquil when one attempts to impose their expectations on me and then label me a villain because I refuse to participate in childish games.

I should also note that homosexuality, bisexuality, transsexuality, and so forth ad infinitum, are not the mainstream and never have been, neither are they likely to ever be. They account for roughly 4% of the general population, which is statistically not even close to representing a majority or anything that resembles one. The other 96% or so should not be obligated to care or forced to comply to additional standards, no less ones that have an entire lexicon of mingled words and formal procedures that need to be memorized and carried out.

Lastly, you are taking issue with the conservatives for being... conservative? I am wording it that way intentionally because the remark seems to somehow imply they are "wrong" for doing so despite the overt fact they adhere to the traditional belief. Needless to say, that is their right and role to do so, otherwise they would not be conservatives.

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

Here is the thing. I don't really care that you feel that they aren't suffering enough to warrant championing. I don't care that you feel like you shouldn't be forced to apologize for misusing pronouns. I don't care that you feel that they are demographically insignificant.

I believe people should be treated fairly regardless of who they are, or how many of them there are, or what sort of burden the are being forced to unfairly bear. That means fighting for womens rights, fighting for gay rights, fighting for trans rights, fighting against racial and ethnic discrimination you name it. People say it is impossible to every completely remove discrimination and injustice but fuck that. Just because something isn't possible doesn't mean the effort isn't worth it.

I can force people to care about them, even if it is just to think about it a minute before they make their insensitive statement. There will always be people like @NightinGem who take up the fight for the rights of minority groups. I can support her financially by contributing to charities and legal defense funds and the like. I can make it a point to stress to every intern I teach that trans rights and sensitivity to others are important. I can give my pronouns before every lecture to demonstrate my privilege as a cis-woman. Oh I won't get all of them, some will roll their eyes but I'll get some and I only have to get enough to reach a threshold that will snowball. I'f I ever become a citizen I can even vote.

I can make it harder for people to be openly trans-phobic or insensitive. I can levy a social cost for such behavior. Once upon a time it was much easier to be a homophobe for example, but the social cost has risen as a result of raised awareness, of activism, and of positive media portrayals from Hollywood.

For me, being progressive, means constantly pushing forward wherever I can. Look at how far Western (and by extention American) society has come, women's suffrage, civil rights, gay marriage and this is in just a century! Conservatives of various stripes have opposed every single one of these moves repeatedly but they have slowly been overcome. There have been set backs, even defeats, maybe even severe defeats, but if we just stay the course, we can create a world that is more just, more kind and more progressive than that the one our mothers bequeathed to us.

Hopefully, one day I'll be sitting at dinner with my great grand daughter and she will say to me (in words which have radically shifted in meaning and nuance from my own youth): Great Grandmother, don't you think that joke about your great grandsons sentient robot life partner was a bit insensitive?

And hopefully Ill have the where with all to sit back, look a little chagrined and reply: Yes great grand daughter, I'm sorry how very conservative of me.

I can force people to care about them, even if it is just to think about it a minute before they make their insensitive statement. There will always be people like @NightinGem who take up the fight for the rights of minority groups. I can support her financially by contributing to charities and legal defense funds and the like. I can make it a point to stress to every intern I teach that trans rights and sensitivity to others are important. I can give my pronouns before every lecture to demonstrate my privilege as a cis-woman. Oh I won't get all of them, some will roll their eyes but I'll get some and I only have to get enough to reach a threshold that will snowball. I'f I ever become a citizen I can even vote.

I can make it harder for people to be openly trans-phobic or insensitive. I can levy a social cost for such behavior. Once upon a time it was much easier to be a homophobe for example, but the social cost has risen as a result of raised awareness, of activism, and of positive media portrayals from Hollywood.

For me, being progressive, means constantly pushing forward wherever I can. Look at how far Western (and by extention American) society has come, women's suffrage, civil rights, gay marriage and this is in just a century! Conservatives of various stripes have opposed every single one of these moves repeatedly but they have slowly been overcome. There have been set backs, even defeats, maybe even severe defeats, but if we just stay the course, we can create a world that is more just, more kind and more progressive than that the one our mothers bequeathed to us.

Hopefully, one day I'll be sitting at dinner with my great grand daughter and she will say to me (in words which have radically shifted in meaning and nuance from my own youth): Great Grandmother, don't you think that joke about your great grandsons sentient robot life partner was a bit insensitive?

And hopefully Ill have the where with all to sit back, look a little chagrined and reply: Yes great grand daughter, I'm sorry how very conservative of me.

But at least you're not religious or nothing, that would be crazy.

But at least you're not religious or nothing, that would be crazy.

I know right?

This is some 1984, Brave New World kinda' shit.

This is some 1984, Brave New World kinda' shit.

No no, they changed the meaning. 1984 is about republicans now. it is known.

No no, they changed the meaning. 1984 is about republicans now. it is known.

Well, if the meaning's changed I guess it's okay. Progress is important.

@Dark Wind Great literature is always relevant and always finds itself amenable to reinterpretation.

@Penny

Or misinterpretation.

@Dark Wind Sure, or misinterpretation.

I dunno what you two are talking about, we have always been at war with Eastasia.

@mdk

*Writes on a note pad outside of the view of the panopticon*

Although I think our dystopia is less 1984 and more Player Piano. Maybe I'm just more of a Vonnegut kinda girl.

@Penny

What legitimate sufferings do these people have that are not eclipsed by greater concerns or agony, even by their own people? I have yet to hear one grievance from the vocal minority that cannot be addressed with, "Yes, and?" There are numerous places on this blue Earth where there is legitimate suffering for those of non-traditional sexuality where they are being thrown off buildings, set on fire or beheaded. Why is there need to "champion" them in first world nations where they have the exact same rights as anyone else? Where they are not under constant, actual threat of danger or death?

I could continue to pose question after question in that regard, but there is never going to be an answer other than "progressive values". Not everything under them is progressive - a great deal of them are regressive and are going retrograde. A great example being the conservative homosexuals who were turned away from participating in a pride parade. Can these paragons of social justice not see how they have unquestionably failed their own philosophy? Shouldn't it not matter who they back politically? They are all non-traditional sexualities, correct? All facing the same or similar struggles? The answer to these questions is yes. The "championing" and "ally" cause has done nothing but hurt the real people they are trying to protect - the infamous road to Hell made up of good intentions.

Returning to the focus, rights do they lack that everyone else has? This same question applies for "women's rights", "gay rights", trans rights", and "racial or ethnic discrimination". I have been all over the United States of America and worked with a great number of people, many of who would have openly disdained me if they knew any of my personal philosophies, beliefs, ethos or codes. The difference being, they cared nothing at all about it because I never made it some factor in my duties. I kept my mouth shut and only focused on what was to be done. I never took offense when someone addressed me by the wrong name or title, if during a speech they accidentally spoke down to me unknowingly because I fall in that audience they were opposed to, if anything it was harder not to laugh or find amusement in that. I was treated the exact same as anyone else there.

Changing topics, forcing your beliefs as the minority on the majority because you believe in social justice is unquestionably inherently wrong. It is the same level of wrong that it would be if I told you that you should be conscripted to perform services to the state because you are not a citizen and that you should have to pay your way to contribute with work. Both sound equally insane and unjust, because by their very nature they are. You as a lawful member of the United States are not under any obligation to "serve society" just as I am not.

You are free to support them and advocate their cause all you want, but when you too begin to preach to me about what I can or cannot do or say, or how I need adjust my life for others, you are out of your lane. The majority of us in the work force do not care about your social sensitivities or social justice programs. We do not want to sit in on lectures about being "more sensitive" or "more accommodating" for other people who may or may not even be present. There's no end to it once it begins. Such lecturing behavior might be applicable in a forum where those people are likely to be present en masse, but for the rest of us it is not relevant enough to be imposed on us. We, the greater, stand to lose more because of it when we could just act as mature men and women - or whatever you wish to identify as - and get on with our lives.

... but if we just stay the course, we can create a world that is more just, more kind and more progressive than that the one our mothers bequeathed to us.

Just for who? Those who take side with the morality police and progressive movement? Everyone else who opposes is just a bigot who has no other motives in life but to hate non-traditional sexuality? The world will never be just, with or without humanity. Nature itself is unforgiving and outright savage; it will eat you alive, as is its want. To assume you can somehow transcend it is hubris.

The real reason I highlight this quote is because it is entirely subjective and born of opinion. There's no amount of rationalization that can combat this in the very same way that one cannot argue with a true believer of any religion. It is a form of faith that transcends reasonability. No less, it is an entirely moral argument as many aspects of belief are. It helps to emphasize that line in the sand and essentially states, backing in principal, that "If you do not believe what we believe, you are the problem." and "If you are not with us, you are against us."

I will ignore the last smirking story presented because I cannot take it seriously to any extent. It personifies the issue I have with the Far Left in their supposed elitism and moral superiority. The same philosophical problem I take with the Alt Right who believe in "white superiority".

@Penny

In address prior to this current change of conversation.

I would not put the various choices of sexuality under the same scrutiny and social battle as segregation or its clearly related struggles of interracial marriage. That comparison is so far off in scope that to equate the two is to demean a huge number of people who had legitimate grievances and experienced actual suffering and legally backed discrimination, despite being no different than skin tone. Members who suffer from sexual dysphoria are not treated as some rate of second class citizens because of their condition or personal orientations; they receive the exact same treatment as anyone else across the board. It goes without saying that they can engage in their activities covertly while race, the very comparison this was made against, simply cannot.

...what? I'm fairly certain the fact that my friend couldn't get married to her wife and thus couldn't see her when she was dying in the hospital is legally backed discrimination. The fact that she had to hide her lover from her entire family because she'd be disowned is generally kinda horrible, too. We aren't treated as second-class citizens because of our orientation or identity? Tell my girlfriend, who had her car fucked up by some guy because she's trans. To my friend who was kicked out of his house when his parents found out he had a boyfriend. To all the people who live with the knowledge that they're more likely to be the victims of violent crime or murder simply for existing as themselves. Maybe it's possible to hide, but I'd generally think that doesn't minimize nor invalidate the suffering. Try growing up gay in the Bible Belt. Telling the kid who hears they'll go to hell from their preacher or their dad tell them they'd kill their kid if they turned out gay. Nah, not persecuted based on orientation, not at all.

Sure, we queer folk might never be the majority, or even mainstream. Does that mean we do not deserve respect? 4 percent is still 4/100 people, roughly 280,000,000 people around the globe.

And I will gladly say I will not respect people who are discriminatory. You reject leftists for rejecting bigots, yet you reject the alt-right for being bigots? That's...a strange, strange philosophy, though I do guess you can only truly discriminate against race, right? Nothing else that's inborn and hurts nobody, yet still gets you discriminated against...

Oh, yeah, you used the word 'choices.' Because I so very much chose to be attracted to women, just like my girlfriend chose to have gender dysphoria. Unless you're saying that our choice is to act on our sexuality and we should force ourselves to live a life of celibacy/dysphoria unless we want to be ostracized.

(Edit: lol checking everyone's profiles I'm currently the only progressive around. Hope y'all have fun trying to convince a 18 year old lesbian that she doesn't deserve any legal protection/hasn't been legitimately discriminated against/etc. Meanwhile, I'mma use a combination of empathy and fact. :))

@The Harbinger of Ferocity

Perhaps the world will never be just. Perhaps hoping for universal rights and tolerance for everyone is a foolish notion that can never be attained.

So What? What if we can make the world 50% more just, 10%. What if all I can hope to achieve in the world is to make life better for one person. I'll take it. Just for who? I'll look for people suffering from injustice and start at the top of the list.

So what if there places in the world where people have it far worse than they do in the United States? In Africa they have forced genital mutilation, why are we wasting time on this whole woman's suffrage thing! It doesn't absolve us of the responsibility to act locally. We CAN have progress on multiple fronts, we must in fact. I don't live in Rwanda, or Chechnya or Iraq, I have to try to make what difference I can, where I can.

I hope that the world can be made better, and I'll work at it. I'd kinda like to leave the place better than I found it.

(Edit: lol checking everyone's profiles I'm currently the only progressive around. Hope y'all have fun trying to convince a 18 year old lesbian that she doesn't deserve any legal protection/hasn't been legitimately discriminated against/etc. Meanwhile, I'mma use a combination of empathy and fact. :))

I'm disabled. I outrank you in oppression points.

@NightinGem

Find another way is always my first reaction. I had to for my own personal challenges, it is not the end of the world. Regardless, I am not going to address each one of these individually with solutions because they are an appeal to emotion. You are asking me to compromise my beliefs on the ground of, "That's really sad, right?" You will find me an uncompromising, largely emotionless figure in that regard because I have seen my fair share of what I believe to be legitimate human suffering. I needn't say anything more than that.

You can carry on with your anecdotes as you wish, but they are not exactly supporting your argument, which I say for the following reason. You have a perceptual bias by being involved in that community to see that information favorably, especially if first hand from your own life or second hand as a proxy. I am sorry, but your few experiences do not make up the majority of what everyone else has experienced in their life, to include those of us who have also suffered other forms of discrimination. This is not some special unique story that only certain people are going to experience in life. The reality is, is that most never do or will and there's not time or room to give special concessions out to anyone and everyone.

You get as much basic respect as anyone does. The people who discriminate against you or others are the outliers to the norm. If you want to trade stories about it, I will raise you one that I am currently supervised by a lesbian couple and the majority of my leaders as of recently are females who are non-white in a male dominated field of occupation. The end result? No one cares. But when we do care is when we sit through a four hour briefing on "diversity awareness" and are told how we are the ones wrong for assuming a man is a man or a woman is a woman.

No, we are really not. And the best part about this story? Those two women aren't the first non-traditional orientations I have had interaction with. I've supervised them and had peers of them. The reason no one had issue with them is because it never was brought up. It was when other people wanted to make it an issue did everyone suffer.

As for my approach, people should be allowed to hold bigoted opinions or views and voice them. The issue I take is when they cease talking and start acting on it. When they start forcing their paranoia that all transsexuals are secretly perverts and are trying to rape people, that's when I tell someone to go sit down and shut their mouth. When someone starts forcing me to memorize a lexicon of terms and procedures for interacting with less than five percent the population of the entire Earth - not caring that I myself have a social disability because this is their personal expectation of me - then branding me a "homophobe" and "bigot", that's where they get the same speech too.

I do not care which side of the argument you are on.

And an edit because of @mdk's comment being particularly funny to me to. Yes, I too technically qualify for a wealth of oppression points despite being a Right leaning Centerist.

@mdk I'm a disabled lesbian foster kid who lives in a homeless shelter~ And I'm not trying to best you out in "oppression points" or whatever (though I probably do lmao), what I was trying to say is that people are blatantly trying to deny the oppression which queer people face to a queer person. Love the ad hominem btw, I apologize if I've fucked us and gotten a bit salty in the past but I'm trying to argue mostly based on what we're saying.

@NightinGem

You aren't the only progressive around, although I'll admit that it was a little lonely in here :P

I'm sorry that you had those experiences. I've watched people die in hospital beds, knowing that their partners don't have a legal right to be there, knowing they were going to receive no life insurance, knowing that they had no right to their partners body. I literally cried when the Supreme Court made its decision.

But yeah, it would be terrible if people were forced to afford them basic human decency.