Without the influence of outside factors which aren't part of chemical reactions and don't follow physical laws, like supernatural things and without a higher civilization messing around with space/time and the universe in general then yeah, the universe is deterministic or predetermined as you might say.

Without the influence of outside factors which aren't part of chemical reactions and don't follow physical laws, like supernatural things and without a higher civilization messing around with space/time and the universe in general then yeah, the universe is deterministic or predetermined as you might say.

Even with interference from the future, I would say that sans an infinite loop, it would still be predetermined. Pretty much, any closed system behaves the same way under the same conditions, correct?

Yes.

Yes.

So if the universe were an open system, then it would not necessarily be absolute. If the human consciousness were linked to a spiritual state that isn't predetermined, then the path of the universe could be different if it were reset.

@Host That's where you are wrong. Nothing isn't predetermined. Even if, let's say, the universe is different after being reset, it is still predetermined on how this new universe will progress and everything else. By saying that something isn't predetermined you directly undermine the omniscience of God.

I still don't see how the spiritual state of humans would change the second time around and the fact that it isn't predetermined is saying that God doesn't see what path that spiritual state will take. What you said might be true if the spiritual state of everyone has some sort of "spiritual memory" of it's first time around. In that case it is very possible that it might behave differently.

@Host That's where you are wrong. Nothing isn't predetermined. Even if, let's say, the universe is different after being reset, it is still predetermined on how this new universe will progress and everything else. By saying that something isn't predetermined you directly undermine the omniscience of God.

I still don't see how the spiritual state of humans would change the second time around and the fact that it isn't predetermined is saying that God doesn't see what path that spiritual state will take. What you said might be true if the spiritual state of everyone has some sort of "spiritual memory" of it's first time around. In that case it is very possible that it might behave differently.

What exactly is your argument? Are you arguing not having predestination is impossible because the future will eventually become the past or are you arguing that God knowing the future directly destroys the ability for it to not be predetermined? Both? Neither?

<Snipped quote by Bishop>

So if the universe were an open system, then it would not necessarily be absolute. If the human consciousness were linked to a spiritual state that isn't predetermined, then the path of the universe could be different if it were reset.

The link to a "spiritual state" is irrelevant. An open system by itself means that a reset could lead to a different path.

Leaving for Chiapas for a missions trip for the internship tomorrow. see you all on Sunday byeeeeee

<Snipped quote by Host>

The link to a "spiritual state" is irrelevant. An open system by itself means that a reset could lead to a different path.

I don't disagree—I was only giving an example of how our world would be considered an open system in a religious context.

@Host Both.
@DarkwolfX37 The universe, no matter which model you pick is deterministic.

@Host Both.
@DarkwolfX37 The universe, no matter which model you pick is deterministic.

Let's approach the first one then. Why must the fact that the past will eventually be set in stone affect whether or not the system is preordained?

The "present and future" will eventually be set in stone.
Our timeline in a universe is a chain of actions in chronological order that ultimately stands as the foundation of that timeline which separates it from any other possible ones. Now remove time from the equation and you got everything that happens in past/present/future all gathered together. You can not change these actions that are engraved in the path of time. For one timeline they are static right? And we ourselves, no matter how many timelines are created by our constant choices, us of this timeline, we only choose one choice and as such we belong to a specific timeline and belonging to a specific timeline means that the choices are already preordained.
So imagine a tree with multiple branches but only one has leaves in it. That is our timeline. From this point you can completely burn all the other branches as they are not important to us. We already made our choices and so we are left with only one branch. Everything is just an unfolding history.

I argued this from the point of there being many worlds and universes so as to give the illusion of many possible choices just to show that they don't really matter since we belong to only one timeline and as such everything is written.

@Bishop

I kind of see your point in the context of many universes, but outside of that, it falls apart a bit.

@Host Both.
@DarkwolfX37 The universe, no matter which model you pick is deterministic.

Incorrect. It's not deterministic regardless of any model used, however it is deterministic.

The "present and future" will eventually be set in stone.
Our timeline in a universe is a chain of actions in chronological order that ultimately stands as the foundation of that timeline which separates it from any other possible ones. Now remove time from the equation and you got everything that happens in past/present/future all gathered together. You can not change these actions that are engraved in the path of time. For one timeline they are static right? And we ourselves, no matter how many timelines are created by our constant choices, us of this timeline, we only choose one choice and as such we belong to a specific timeline and belonging to a specific timeline means that the choices are already preordained.
So imagine a tree with multiple branches but only one has leaves in it. That is our timeline. From this point you can completely burn all the other branches as they are not important to us. We already made our choices and so we are left with only one branch. Everything is just an unfolding history.

I argued this from the point of there being many worlds and universes so as to give the illusion of many possible choices just to show that they don't really matter since we belong to only one timeline and as such everything is written.

That's also incorrect. Time is not linear.

*Extends arms*
8INHaLEs DEEpLY*
GUESS WHO'S BACK WITH A BRAND NEW RAP AND I DON'T MEAN RAP AS IN A NEW CASE OF CHILD MOLESTATION ACUSSATIONS
AYAYAYAY NO WORRIES PAPA'S GOT A BRAND NEW BAG OF TOYS

*Extends arms*
8INHaLEs DEEpLY*
GUESS WHO'S BACK WITH A BRAND NEW RAP AND I DON'T MEAN RAP AS IN A NEW CASE OF CHILD MOLESTATION ACUSSATIONS
AYAYAYAY NO WORRIES PAPA'S GOT A BRAND NEW BAG OF TOYS

Okay, Eminem. Go back to 8 mile.

@DarkwolfX37

You forgot to take your meds this morning.

@DarkwolfX37

You forgot to take your meds this morning.

That's not incorrect but is irrelevant. Also I take my meds at night.

<Snipped quote by Nimda>

That's not incorrect but is irrelevant. Also I take my meds at night.

You get crazier in the Dark.