Game of Thrones : The Pact of Ice and Fire

[MrDidact]

@bloonewb Oh yeah, I'm really curious to see how it turns out! Remember you can play the whole family, or at least the important members of it, not just one person. Though I suppose they'd all be Ramsay's children.

[Gowi]

Only current idea is for a Lady of the Stormlands, who by the time of the Dragon/Wolf's coronation was the last of her name. Pretty busy, but if the idea is inspired I might occasionally do stuff.

This would require us changing some things about The Stormlands, though. But if that is a no go, I'm not sure what I could want to do.

My Hider

Lady Shireen of House Baratheon, Lord Lady Paramount of The Stormlands

“We must learn from our mistakes if we are to succeed where our predecessors failed.”

[MrDidact]

@Gowi that's a really interesting idea! Since this is based off of a blend of show/book canon, Shireen was originally sadly unavailable for play. Instead Edric Storm and the other surviving bastards were legitimized to continue the House, with Edric as the Lord Paramount.

If you're willing to play as Edric, then no change is necessary. But I'll collaborate with Dredigan, they're my Co-GM, and see what they think about possibly letting you play Shireen. We'll mull it over and get back to as quick as possible with our thoughts. I would normally say yes, but the issue here is that this would open the doors for a lot of characters who would be dead in the story having their status ambiguous and that could potentially make things quite messy if players want to come in, rez a character who had been considered dead before, and somewhat wreck the continuity. Or perhaps we could allow it on an individual basis. Either way, I will definitely get back to you soon.

What other changes were you thinking over?

[Gowi]

What other changes were you thinking over?

@MrDidact

None really? It was just an idea that came to my mind— the only other options would be minor characters and I will tell you frank I have no sub-plots in mind at this point in time. Given I am not involved at the moment I suppose my thoughts don’t have much precedence, but in a potential future would it not be more apt to collaborate with prospective players and build the world essentially together? This is not me questioning your decision, but just a question per my perspective.

With that said I already have solutions to the whole "who did she marry tho" and some loose ideas of how she'd run The Stormlands.

Also in the name of transparency I am pretty busy with RP's, but I would not have commented with this pitch had I had no inclinations or thoughts regarding a Shireen-led province.

But idk, up to you guys.

[MrDidact]

@Gowi Well the nuts and bolts of the situation is largely subject to collaboration between the players. What is Jaime Lannister's fate? Brienne of Tarth's? Jorah Mormont? Who did Brandon Stark marry? Arya? Sansa? What's the status of House Frey? Is House Bolton bouncing back? Who are the other members of the Small Council? What other big rivalries and conflicts are boiling over? All other kinds of specific details. Details like that are important but are ambiguous and undecided in what is essentially my high concept summary of the potential future. Notice I pretty much gloss over the particulars of nearly 25 years of history in Westeros to allow room for that kind of collaboration. But big elements somewhat have to be nailed down since the RP is both set in the future and is also a blend of Show/Book canon, and something of my attempt to merge elements of the two continuities. Shireen was then envisioned as dead since the RP draws from both continuities.

I thought it would be best to lay down a solid foundation for the players to then build on. I didn't really think it'd be great to leave open the question of who would sit on the Iron Throne and big details like that. In my opinion, leaving so much up in the air at the start would have really delayed the start of the game and possibly killed it as people debate about whether or not Jon, Dany, Aegon, Stannis, Tommen, or whoever should sit on the Iron Throne. I also thought quibbling over what elements from the show should and shouldn't be canon would get really tedious. Especially since in most cases like Shireen, they will almost certainly die in the books as well. Creating a high concept summary to try and reconcile the two continuities seemed neater. My GMing style in the past has mostly been for me to help build something of a sandbox and then let the players decide the direction and details of the story and world. That's just my view on it but I understand completely what you're saying.

That said, I'm still open to hearing your ideas for your Shireen concept. And yes if she is alive, she'd be in her mid-thirties at this point.

EDIT: Dredigan suggested to me perhaps that since she was sacrificed to R'hllor, it isn't completely far-fetched that the magic of R'hllor was also used to bring her back in the "modern day" of the RP. It could potentially add an interesting facet to her character and some very interesting opportunities for interaction or conflict in the game. What are your thoughts?

[Gowi]

_{The TV shows continuity is awful.}

I don't think a reincarnation with that long of a period is immersive less alone interesting to me. Ultimately, if you guys are saying she got sacrificed then I guess I should just rescind interest and focus my energy on other games.

As for your assertion of George R.R. Martin’s intentions with Shireen he has never publicly stated anything as far as I know and has been generally vague and cryptic to better ensure people don’t have false preconceptions. However, as a counterpoint I ask you this— Is letting the people who want to write and develop their POVs in their corner of Westeros really quibbling on the small details or just micromanaging every corner? I understand setting things up with a concrete purpose so I’m not even upset or disappointed, but I know what is fundamentally workable for me going forward.

tl;dr I have no desire playing a reincarnated Shireen nor do I have desire to play Edric Storm, so I will likely rescind interest and carry on. You guys have fun, I'll see you around. =)

[MrDidact]

I was under a different impression with regards to Shireen but whatever. I'm fine with letting people develop their POVs, the entire next generation of Westeros' leadership is going to be largely player determined for example, but a concrete backstory was needed in my opinion. There needed to be a fate for the Boltons, for Stannis, for Shireen, for Cersei, and while they aren't dead in the books (and Cersei isn't in the show) I was trying to reconcile the two canons and that necessitated a few unplayable characters.

All that aside thank you for your interest and your input, and I hope your other games go well and who knows we might be in a game together in the future.

[Dredigan]

I think a bigger issue is rising here and that's just the one of where the GM involvement ends and the player freedom begins. What we have to realize is that even though it's a sandbox game it has to have a precedent set that determines the end point of the story in the novels and HBO series that way we can move on and direct a new plot line in the 'modern day' if you will.

I believe that @MrDidact chose to begin the roleplay in such a political state with only the best interests of the players and the game as a whole at heart. The only reason I suggest Shireen remain dead is because of the thematic importance of her death in the overall narrative. It shows the desperation of defeating the long night and that nobody is safe from the cruelty perpetrated by mankind. Keeping her alive would really take away from the overall impact of death in the story in my opinion. However I think a resurrection would also be thematically appropriate because it would be a testament to the fortitude and spirit and the righteousness of those who stood against the white walkers.

I was suggested she be sacrificed and then resurrected shortly after, not well into her adulthood. More as something that could be used as a part of the characters distant history that would no doubt influence her way of thinking and others perception of her.

Anyway I hope there's no tension here and I hate to see someone turn away interest :( in the end it is Didact's call, but I think resurrection is the best route. I hope something can be worked out to get you to stay, @Gowi.

[Gowi]

No tension— I just have no fundamental interest with a resurrected Shireen.

I’m of the opinion that this is one of the things that the show got wrong and will likely be approached in the books very differently; even if George does ultimately think she need to perish for the narrative. The show created a scene that was out of character for Stannis Baratheon and it has never sat well with me (same with Dorne, Myrcella, and to a lesser extent Essos).

I’ve worked with Didact before (a superhero RP, iirc), if my memory serves so this is not me being unfriendly; I am just offering my counterpoints and disinterest. :F

But if I were to humor the idea that Shireen came back after her (blatantly out of character) father called for her death, then I feel her personality would be reflected in many ways and I’m not sure it would be the same tone and spirit as I initially perceived my concept. She’d be harsher, colder, and find the only faith she has is in the spirits because man has shown her it is not to be trusted at all. She’d return to The Stormlands bitter, cynical, and hollow. While this could be interesting by some degree, the GM has also already decided Edric Storm took charge of her rightful claim so there would still be issue. Unless adjusting that is possible. If so, I don’t understand why adjusting her whole death out of the plot couldn’t be done just to same. Thus it would bring the question of this— what bearing does it have on the setting or the GM characters at that end? Is it really important for her to die?

The only conclusion I can come to objectively is no, but I am not the authority of the RP nor do I presume I am so this is all simply my opinion from what I can deduce.

[Dredigan]

@Gowi

I find your argument to be fully valid and fair, you cant be expected to play a character you dont want to play. And you're also correct that things can be tweaked here and there, it's just that Didact is watching out for future players who enter because he doesnt want to set a precedent that other dead characters can just be thrown back in and have people muddle with the timeline further because of the continuity issues that could arise. And as he said in his PM to me, it could be done on a case by case basis but then how do you fairly determine who gets their way and who doesnt?

Personally I dont think either of us have an issue with you playing shireen and removing Edric Storm, it's just that we (or at the very least, I) think it would be better from a narrative perspective if she was resurrected rather than avoiding the death as a whole. And it's partially because her death is definitely concrete. I realize George is generally ambiguous when it comes to future books events however he has stated several times since the airing of that episode that Shireen is going to be burned in the book by Stannis as well, even going as far as to say he was disappointed that the show spoiled it.

Im glad you're being graceful about our reluctance, however now that I know I've gotten my opinion fully out there I would also like to say that Im only in this to see us all have as much fun as we can, and I will support whatever decision Didact wants to make regarding you playing Shireen.

[Gowi]

I feel like George is going to build up to it and write it better than it was written and directed in the show, then.

But given this AU, how much rope do you really want to give?

I’m rather tired right now, so I’m not sure how to phrase this reply but I will try. I cannot give you an opinion on how you guys are handling things or how you should; the only thing I can do is give you frame of reference of other RPG-oriented ASOIAF collaborations which in their past have often given more room for the player to develop things so they can be invested even if they are questionable from a canon perspective. But there’s only been like two or three collaborations focused on Westeros in the future, so they might not be a great frame of reference.

I don’t know.

But like I asked in the previous post— how important is her death really when it comes to the plot and framework of this game? If your conclusion is the same as mine (probably not) with your addition GM wisdom and knowledge then how do you want to proceed? I’m only replying right now because you seem to be trying to convince me (and you seem swell) and Didact thus given you proper courtesy in that regard. I like ASOIAF, so I am still possibly intrigued.

seven hells, I might even be warming up to your idea

[Dredigan]

@Gowi

Im not arguing your point in saying that people will get more invested in a plot if they have an influence in how it is developed, and I'm not arguing that we have more wisdom or knowledge when it comes to roleplaying than you do. I don't really think its up to us to determine how anybody should play their character.

But for instance, say somebody was intent on playing Viserys. I recognize thats a more extreme example than Shireen but just for the sake of argument. He'd mess up the continuity because obviously he'd be another Targ heir that would prevent Dany's rise to the throne of westeros so on and so forth. Obviously Shireen wouldn't influence Dany and Jon coming to power on the throne, but theres a chance she'd affect other important things that might create a plot hole. For instance you could ask how she managed to survive her fathers army being crushed to bits, her father dying, then crossing the north in the wintertime in what was currently enemy territory AND just on the fringe of the long night?

And even though you might be able to explain away many of the issues that could arise, I think another concern is being fair to other people down the line. What if someone wants to play Kevan Lannister? His death was only mentioned at the end of aDwD, however it could have a major effect. Yet its important to the overall continuity set up here and we'd have to change more and more backstory to accomodate this kind of thing and then the continuum gets choppy and things start to fall apart.

So it's not playing Shireen thats the issue, it's just that she died in the show and shes gonna die in the books and it seems to me like Didact really wants to keep the definite canon a relevant as we can.

Also I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to make you do anything! I just want to be fair and try to explain where I'm coming from so we don't seem like we're just exerting power over the players for the hell of it. And if you do decide you want to play a resurrected Shireen I'd love to spitball some ideas with you if you want some help! Really if you're worried she will just have to be a cold hearted shrewd with R'hllor as her only light in life then you could make her first character arch be one about her re-discovering her hope for mankind! Hopefully if nothing else you find another interesting character to play. Who knows, Didact might even let you play Shireen and ignore her death anyway, like I said it's his call and I'll be fully behind his decision.

[Gowi]

@Dredigan

[MrDidact]

@Gowi You are right, we have played a game together before. It was a superhero one. It was a bit ago though, and I was unsure if I was remembering correctly. Yeah GRRM will probably build up to it a lot better, but the actual specifics of her death are never elaborated upon in our backstory, it was just stated to happen. The same way I think the Boltons and Walder Frey will probably die differently in the books, but it's still likely going to happen.

Dredigan put our whole view of the matter in way better words than I did but you did bring up some good points about player involvement in the shaping of the world. For me it was kind of a balancing act to keep the canon (both of them) as relevant as possible while still having room for collaboration.

Now the reasons for me wanting to keep Shireen's death in the story are because of it's thematic appropriateness to the canon story as a whole, and because of the potential ripple effects. Since we have played a game before, I am not worried about your ability to play a Shireen character really well. But I do want to be fair to future player, and I don't think there's a fair way to allow certain character's deaths to be washed from the backstory and bar others. As of right now, I think I would prefer to keep Shireen's death in the RP's backstory. As Dredigan said, nobody wants you to play a character you don't want to play so if this is a hard no-go for you than I understand if you want to leave completely and there will be no hard feelings from us.

However, a good case can be made that a resurrected Shireen would be a very compelling PC for the game for the reasons already stated by Dredigan. It would depend on the specific circumstances of her resurrection, if she came back soon or in adulthood, but either way it could potentially enrich her POV and the story greatly. Of course, the role of the Baratheon bastards would be adjusted depending on whether or not you wanted to have them as additional PCs as well.

I hope you do decide to stick around. But whatever you decide to do, I'm glad we had this discussion and that it's been a sensible and reasoned discussion.

[Gowi]

However, a good case can be made that a resurrected Shireen would be a very compelling PC for the game for the reasons already stated by Dredigan. It would depend on the specific circumstances of her resurrection, if she came back soon or in adulthood, but either way it could potentially enrich her POV and the story greatly. Of course, the role of the Baratheon bastards would be adjusted depending on whether or not you wanted to have them as additional PCs as well.

@MrDidact

These are all fair points, but I suppose the only important one is how convincing has Dredigan been? Considering I’m thinking in my head how a resurrected Shireen would be fascinating and what character dynamics she’d have. Initially I thought about the kind soft-spoken Shireen from the books growing up but now I’m considering a woman both terrified and indebted to the flames, distrusting of people and their intentions, and ultimately very dour and cynical. In some ways she might even mirror Stannis in her later years of life.

I will remind you that I am very... strapped for time, but I am fascinated and seem to be socializing well enough that this could be fun for me.

[Dredigan]

@MrDidact

I think now might be an appropriate time to suggest that all conversation is moved to the OOC or PM to keep things a little neater cause I'm kind of getting confused trying to track all both of those and the IC right now haha.

[MrDidact]

@Dredigan I second that.

Everyone, to the OOC!