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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Gwynbleidd
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Gwynbleidd Summon The Bitches

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Nazi Pug.

So people are putting up 'mirror' videos of the original in order to get past censorship it seems. Anyway this is one of those mirrors I could find. So he recently was convicted and found guilty. So the question is, how do you feel about the verdict and do you think this sets a dangerous precedent that can easily be abused?

Did he deserve the verdict? How worried are you about what this means for free speech? What thinkest thou o debaters of politics? How much does the context of the video[as a way to annoying his girlfriend] affect the actual video itself? Lots of stuff to potentially discuss here.


It's repugnant.

The verdict is tyrannical. There is no other way around this. It's fucking grotesque and should be treated as such.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Gwynbleidd
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I swear the pun was not intended.

Divine inspiration, perhaps? Still, free speech is free speech. That's as it should be.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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The pun wasn't intended?! Why do you have to break my heart?

Also, just incase anyone forgot, the administration is still trash:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43525549
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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Alternatively it could be a pretty predictable move given the interests of the Department of Defense, to even quote the article you cited, @Penny.

The Department of Defence (DoD) had submitted a report to the president which said allowing those with a history of gender dysphoria to serve entailed "substantial risks" and could, by exempting them from existing physical, mental and sex-based standards, "undermine readiness... and impose an unreasonable burden on the military".
BBC News

There is even a lovely official memorandum for reference on their rationale. It does even contain things as the following recommendations to, and I quote, to specifically "retain" a selected set. To borrow from another source as well, just in case both of those examples were not enough and that somehow the official recommendation was insufficient;

The White House said Defense Secretary Jim Mattis had found that individuals with a history or diagnosis of gender dysphoria presented a risk to military effectiveness.

“This new policy will enable the military to apply well-established mental and physical health standards ... equally to all individuals who want to join and fight for the best military force the world has ever seen,” it said.

In a memo cited by CNN, the Pentagon said that Trump's order would exclude those "stable for 36 consecutive months in their biological sex prior to accession," servicemembers who "do not require a change of gender" and troops who started serving under the Obama administration's removal of restrictions on transgender recruits.
Newsweek

But yes, let us appeal to emotional outrage and feelings in military matters. No way that can possibly go wrong, mixing social progressivism in an environment that does not particular care about it. Certainly the sort of commentary and analysis one would expect from a "trash" administration. For the record, the lengths they speak to in the memorandum about unit cohesion and mental health hit the most close to home; probably the best thought based arguments in the document over the obviously physical ones.

As a later edition to my post and to state the core of their mindset, directly from the source.

Moreover nothing in this policy should be viewed as reflecting poorly on transgender persons who suffer from gender dysphoria, or have had a history of gender dysphoria, and are accordingly disqualified from service. The vast majority of Americans from ages 17 to 24 - that is, 71% - are ineligible to join the military without a waiver for mental, medical, or behavioral reasons. Transgender persons with gender dysphoria are no less valued members of our Nation than all other categories of persons who are disqualified from military service. The Department honors all citizens who wish to dedicate, and perhaps even lay down, their lives in defense of the Nation, even when the Department, in the best interests of the military, must decline to grant their wish.
Memorandum for the President on the Subject of Military Service by Transgender Individuals
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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I had noticed that the US military crumbled into ineffectiveness since trans people were allowed to serve openly. Lucky this totally non transphobic policy came along to reverse the complete collapse of American Military Power!
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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I had noticed that the US military crumbled into ineffectiveness since trans people were allowed to serve openly. Lucky this totally non transphobic policy came along to reverse the complete collapse of American Military Power!


I expected nothing less in comment or reaction, but to the legitimate point rather than "humor".

It is an absolutely non-transphobic policy, so let us try not to read more into it than exists; let us attempt to stay in the realm of "reals" not the "feels". No less, it is only an issue of what people propose the military should allow despite numerous other disqualifying criteria, a great number of which are listed in Department of Defense Instruction 6130, some examples being found on pages ten and eleven of the memorandum. Is the military "hermaphriphobic" because they are disqualified? Does the military have "suicide phobia" because people with depression or suicidal tendencies are barred? Is the military discriminating against people who are HIV positive by preventing them from joining because they are afraid of it?

Round and round could we go, but the ultimate answer is, is that people are not obligated to serve and the Department of Defense has the right to screen potential concern candidates whenever and wherever they can. This business about "transphobia" is only given any attention because it is socially relevant and people, especially civilians, are utterly willing to sacrifice even more effectiveness for inclusiveness. The machine is already a rumbling, rolling disaster of bureaucracy and needless red tape, the last thing it needs is more fine tuned rules, "Gender Sensitivity" briefings on PowerPoint slides, responses by security forces to suicides, or more airmen, marines, soldiers, or sailors missing out on their duty because they are attending therapy of some sort that could have been avoided in the first place.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Turns out dog whistles work on cats. I expected nothing less.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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Have you an actual argument about politics or policy, @Penny, or are you just as content as usual to post something or make a "joke" then slink away?
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Slink away? I'm still here as you can probably tell.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Hey rehash all the tired no women in the military arguments but just substitute for Trans that should save some time.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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Yes, much so, @Penny, do you have anything to back your opinion on the topic you yourself posted or not? I am all for debating the invalidity of validity of defense policy as you can probably tell, but if some of us are perfectly happy to dodge it, no point in my bothering. I mean it is not as though the argument of it being "trash" policy can be debunked in a few minutes or by anyone remotely familiar to it, let alone capable of reading an official report on it by the Department of Defense, or - actually, hold for a moment. Yes, yes it is that easy. Now if you wish to challenge those facts that is another issue entirely, but hence why I ask. Anything to actually add?

In addition, to your added post, where and when has anyone here advocated against women in the military? Please specify as I would like to know. Last I recall, I personally advocated any female who can meet the fitness and mission requirements be allowed to compete in the same arena, so long as none of those were lowered from the male, thus equivalent, standards.
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Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Yes, much so, @Penny, do you have anything to back your opinion on the topic you yourself posted or not? I am all for debating the invalidity of validity of defense policy as you can probably tell, but if some of us are perfectly happy to dodge it, no point in my bothering. I mean it is not as though the argument of it being "trash" policy can be debunked in a few minutes or by anyone remotely familiar to it, let alone capable of reading an official report on it by the Department of Defense, or - actually, hold for a moment. Yes, yes it is that easy. Now if you wish to challenge those facts that is another issue entirely, but hence why I ask. Anything to actually add?

In addition, to your added post, where and when has anyone here advocated against women in the military? Please specify as I would like to know. Last I recall, I personally advocated any female who can meet the fitness and mission requirements be allowed to compete in the same arena, so long as none of those were lowered from the male, thus equivalent, standards.


I'm implying that the exact same arguments have been invoked for women serving and for gays serving. How will unit cohesion survive?! This is just for the benefit of the trans-phobic base. Anyone who meets the physical standards should be able to serve. Period.
Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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From the out that argument can be debunked here, @Penny, but they are wonderful examples of erosion of standards. Why are there exceptions to the rules for those who cannot meet the standards? The most infamous one that tends to drive people mad is that the female fitness standards, in virtually all cases, do not remotely match those of males, yet you can have both in the same career field. That is, by definition, not meeting the bare minimum expectations of the service. For homosexuality, where was the issue with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" as a standard? No one needs to know if you are a homosexual and you do not need to tell anyone you are. Of course we could get into the mental health side as well, but we both know the answer why there was aversion to it there.

Carrying on, anyone who meets the physical standards should be able to serve? Are we ableists now too as a current military? Why not just fling the doors open and let anyone and everyone sign on the line? I would love to hear your rationale why anyone with mental health issues should not be screened out, let alone removed from service if need be when they do arise. Service is a system of willing sacrifice and as I noted, while a great many of us appreciate the willingness to commit, up to giving one's own life, the Department of Defense isn't about to regularly make case by case exemptions, especially not for every new prospective recruit walking through their door. They are banking on the majority of people, apparently some 71%, to fail their criteria; this is also ignoring the amount of washouts or less than one year served enlisted and officers who are then administratively or medically discharged. I would risk saying that closer to 80% of the population in that age bracket get disqualified somehow or some way.

Just how large do you believe the proposed "transphobic base" is? We have had this conversation before, but the general field of people who are transgender is a measly .6% of the entire population in the United States, totaling to around 4% of the adult population who are some sex or gender other than typical. Even if there were ten times more transphobic people than actual transgender people, that is still a nothing 6%. It would take around one hundred times more to be relevant in any real matter and I am going to go out on a limb and say that some 60% of the population isn't transphobic. This is essentially a non-argument and sounds good in theory if it were not totally irrational.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Just how large do you believe the proposed "transphobic base" is? We have had this conversation before, but the general field of people who are transgender is a measly .6% of the entire population in the United States, totaling to around 4% of the adult population who are some sex or gender other than typical. Even if there were ten times more transphobic people than actual transgender people, that is still a nothing 6%. It would take around one hundred times more to be relevant in any real matter and I am going to go out on a limb and say that some 60% of the population isn't transphobic. This is essentially a non-argument and sounds good in theory if it were not totally irrational.


Are you suggesting that because the number of trans people is small their rights dont matter? That discrimination against them isn't real and pervasive. It is a little hard to parse that paragraph.

Seeing we are pulling numbers out of the ether, roughly 50 percent of Americans are against trans people using the bathroom consistent with their identity. Therefore 50 percent of American are at least slightly transphobic. I know this is confusing to some people in this thread but transphobia, like gender, exists on a spectrum. I'm also willing to bet that transphobia skews with ideology and that more conservatives express transphobia than liberals (although some might whine at being labeled like that because they are easily triggered). Actually I dont have to bet because pew helpfully conducted a survey http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender-issues-divide-republicans-and-democrats/.

Just for the sake of argument, lets take your 60 percent of people aren't transphobic figure as though it were real. That means that 40 percent of people are, skew that ideologically and you are looking at a significant base of people. Pushing for a trans ban in the military plays well with the republican base even though, as the Rand study Obama was relying on says, the effects of Trans people serving is likely minimal.

Come to think of it didn't you say sexism dosen't exist at some point?
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by SleepingSilence
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Come to think of it didn't you say sexism dosen't exist at some point?


Maybe you should, I don't know. Prove anything, you say or think. Just throwing that out there.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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Maybe you should, I don't know. Prove anything, you say or think. Just throwing that out there.


Maybe you should make 99.99 percent sure before you throw something out there. Just throwing it out there.

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Hidden 7 yrs ago 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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@Penny

No, what I am stating is, is that they are not disproportionately affected by this action as some are claiming them to be, such as this needless hysteria over a non-issue. Let me put this on its head for a moment and ask you this, should we allow that other seventy or so percent of disqualified people to claim "discrimination" against them by the military? Let us use another example too, just to hit the point home, and lets make it clear with something extreme. Are schizophrenics being wrongfully discriminated against by being barred from service in the United States military? Where is all the uproar about that? Now let us dial it back more, what about people who can by and large function, such as some of those on the autistic spectrum. Where's the outrage against them being "unfit" for service despite potentially being excellent candidates for those who are high functioning?

I will state why as it is as simple and straightforward as can be; it isn't socially convenient or the "in" thing for progressives to get twisted into knots over. The entire "transgender rights" argument is bunk as it is and is forcing others to play by their rules, not reality's rules. One excellent place that does not belong and only stands to, on average, complicate more things than resolve? The military, even more so when the armed forces has neither the time nor reason to care or invest in the "maybe" worthwhile cases. No less, if someone is trasgender and can function, the military's recommendation is to include them provided they can meet the 36 month criteria and not violate the other clauses of the regulations while doing it.

As for "pulling numbers out of the ether", not very ethereal considering these can be grasped with cursory searching. There isn't an issue at all with half of the population of the United States saying people who identify as X, Y, or Z should not be allowed to use a restroom for their identified gender. Why? Because unless they are transitioned, even yet then, for all intents and purposes they still are effectively their assigned gender, rather sex, by birth. There have already been issues with this where it was allowed that people have been abusing it to their ends, but there is no point in discussing that - the exact thing warned would happen did happen.

The only people "whining" about labels is because that is not a fair street; it does not go both ways. If I started lambasting half of this thread for being "softhearted, naive, know-nothing, hippy feelsgood regressives" I would be just as out of line as I would be by slapping them with the "liberal" label or at minimum squawking about how they are sympathizers or deniers or insert word-of-the-month here, but in reverse it is pretty socially acceptable to beat on conservatives or stereotype them as something equally insane as my Leftist example. Unless you identify as any of those and call yourself that, giving yourself a label, I am not about to make accusations of what you are or are not and that goes for anyone. To further build off of that, I make it a consistent point to simply not label people at all and let their characters speak for themselves as much as I can and where I can. I may or may not believe certain things about various people here or their affiliations - say that some are clearly Left-wing and others Right-wing - but let's stop beating around the bush about who is "easily triggered" and get over ourselves like adults, recognizing where the real issue is, please. Good enough? I thought so, so moving on.

If your standard for transphobia is so low that you think there is a real issue with them taking problem with sharing bathrooms with others who make them uncomfortable, that is your own issue and anyone who wants to live that ideology. For at least half of the nation, it greatly upsets them or is disconcerting, something that should not just be taken into account but even greater so because of the context. To be fair, their rights, these "specialty rights", being assigned to those as transgenders should not trump the rights of the regular people. One would think this is obvious, but no, it really shouldn't be the .6% deciding the rules of bathroom use, rather a larger issue of transgenders in society, for the other 99.4%.

The "Republican base" certainly cares more about the military as a whole than the "Democrat base" and it is no surprise which sides are pushing for what. Again, an absolute non-argument and dismissed. Strangely, you know what isn't dismissed? The fact the Department of Defense itself checked against the Rand study in this memorandum and essentially tore it to metaphorical shreds. I would strongly urge you to read what the military itself has to say on its findings and note, more than anything, it isn't actually barring transgender people who are not potentially problematic.

As for sexism, no I do not believe sexism meaningfully exists in any capacity. People will always have biases, but I have certainly never seen any of the claimed elements of it like those of the infamous "wage gap". I have however, been subject to "reverse sexism" as I testified before, namely because of this sort of social justice nonsense about choosing individuals or candidates based on sex, race, gender, age, et cetera, rather than ability or capability; essentially, I lost my draw on things to a quota despite being a better choice.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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The entire "transgender rights" argument is bunk


And we are done here. Dog whistle successful I guess.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by The Harbinger of Ferocity
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Glad to know we can narrow down six paragraphs, more if previous posts are to count, on topic to something so minor and specific, @Penny. I would love to hear what specific rights transgender persons are so denied and how they so much deserve more than the rest of us. But "something, something, dog whistle" sounds far more adroit.
Hidden 7 yrs ago Post by Penny
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I did manage to get past the first paragraph of tortured prose where you attempted to dismiss all trans people as mentally ill.

Once you get to the:

The entire "transgender rights" argument is bunk


You can be pretty sure you are dealing with exactly the sort of person this policy is aimed at.
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