The Book Club

[POOHEAD189]

Why do I even associate with you!

@Penny

Wait, we can work this out

To be honest, I don't even recall hearing about the book before. There's a lot of names to remember in the book if wikipedia is any credible source. It says Kvothe is a title?
@0 Azzy 0 What's your opinion on the book? I kinda want a discussion tbh.

[Penny]

Kvothe is the protagonist.

[0 Azzy 0]

So, to summarize as succinctly as possible, The Name of the Wind is the story of: "Gary Stu goes to fantasy Hogwarts". Though I feel it is hardly fair to leave it at that. XD

Fiction: (fantasy)
The Name of the Wind:
This story has an interesting way of being told, in that it is from the perspective of the main protagonist relating the story of his life to a traveling scribe, long after events have taken place. The story itself is one of the tried and true fantasy formulas: young orphan lad Gary Stu with his tragic past full of dead parents goes to magic school to get good so he can eventually get some revenge. Along the way he'll have to deal with the constant problem of being poor, as well as the unwanted ire of the Malfoy and Snape stand-ins of the story after he arrives at Hogwarts. Fortunately, young Gary is obnoxiously good at virtually everything, to levels somewhat egregious even for a fantasy protagonist. While most protagonists do have an improbably higher-than-average success rate by nature, due to the fact that not regularly succeeding when you are rolling life or death stakes means you've really been reading Game of Thrones the whole time (and need to find a new character to root for), Gary is particularly flagrant in being amazing at everything forever. We're talking levels like: walk up to a random bard, grab his lute, start strumming a few chords and have all the women present weeping five minutes later due to how amazeballz you are. Then, give a small sigh at how out of tune the instrument is and wander off on your way. We're also talking: show up at Hogwarts, be one of the youngest people to ever attend, then rather than pay tuition like everyone else, convince the university to pay you in order to attend (you can't even make this stuff up XD). While it is fair to say that the book does at times diverge from some tropes, the method of storytelling makes it so these can be almost painfully broadcast when they are about to happen. Basically, if Gary ever starts to go: "now in all the other stories X would happen at this point", you can be fairly certain X isn't about to happen. That being said, you do see how Gary ends up: a lonely apathetic sadsack tavern owner, so things clearly can't keep working out well forever. I have only read the first book thus far and cannot speak for the second, but I feel like the first book does an adequate job of keeping you wondering when he will stop winning the house cup getting rewarding for things that would otherwise mean expulsion for anyone except a primary protagonist and when his life will take the inevitable nosedive required to get to the present.

All that taken into account, ultimately I think it is a good book written by a good author (who also seems to be a pretty awesome person, if that counts for anything in book preferences). The characters are likeable and the story is cohesive and fun. It might be a grossly overhyped book with a Rick and Morty-esque toxic fanbase who very well might flay you alive if you don't proclaim Patrick Rothfuss the greatest wordsmith to have ever graced this world, but I would still recommend The Kingkiller Chronicles be on the reading list of any fantasy-lover. Just probably not at the top.

[POOHEAD189]

Who to believe!?

Love the description. If y'all both recommend it I'll probably give it a go at some point. Though my reading list is long.

[Penny]

It has been a decade since I read it so apologies if I mess up names.

It is certainly true that Kvothe is unusually talented but I view that as feature rather than a bug. It is a theme of the book and (such as it is the series). For all his powers and tricks Kvothe is ultimately:

SPOILERS

Unable to help Deanna
Unable to truly master the Name of the Wind
Unable to make an real progress in his search for the Chamdrin

There are plenty of touchstones for the theme of self defeating arrogance throughout the book.

Furthermore the tone and demeanor of the mature Kvothe, in the present, indicates that he is coming to terms with his youthful misuse of power. Bast in fact despairs the change in his friend and actively tries to steer the Chronicler to help affect a change. Kvothe himself admits that the current apocalypse is essentially his fault due to the misuse of his own power.

The world would be WAY better off if Kvothe had been a bit less self important and gone to find Abenthy rather than torturing himself and setting the whole storm in motion.

Also above and beyond the plot, the prose is absolutely beautiful.

[Penny]

Fiction: Occult Espionage???

The Atrocity Archive - Charles Stross

It is a little hard to classify Stross' Laundry Files series. The protagonist is basically a tech support guy turned field agent in a British Intel agency (The Laundry) that combats a version of the Cthulhu Mythos. This is the first book in the series so the plot wanders a little in the interest of world building. Bob Howard is unwittingly drawn into an investigation of a cult that plans to wipe out all life on Earth... sort of.

It is incredibly funny and meta, packed with jokes abut everything from computer science to pinky and the brain. There is a ton of historical anecdote presented in a funny and smart way. Lovecraft himself existed in universe but is viewed as a deluded hack. American Occult int is literally run by demons. A major british spymaster goes by the name Angleton more or less to spit the CIA and so on. The Laundry itself is a hilarious commentary on the bureaucratic nature of government and intelligence. The end of the world is literally around the corner but more importantly you filed your expense form incorrectly.

It is a weird book that is very hard to classify but it is an insane romp that is both hilarious and creepy and I just ADORE the universe.

[0 Azzy 0]

Who to believe!?

@POOHEAD189

At least, I figure if you look for the threads of similarity between the one review that gushes and the one that is critical, we see that both reviews ultimately recommend it. That, more than anything else, is probably the most important detail.

---

Though, to continue the discussion...

To put things in perspective, let's say someone was starting their own roleplay and is looking over character sheets people have posted. Then, you come across this one fedora-tipping m'ladies-man with his anime-style "true-red" hair and traditional tragic dead-parents past. Then we get to reading about personality. Under a section labeled "Character strengths" he has written "He is amazing at everything he tries. If needed, he could learn and entire language in a day and a half or get officially certified as a musician on a lute with a broken string.". Things are looking a little dicey already, but you move on to "character flaws", where the only thing written is: "he is aware of how good he is at everything and it makes him reckless and overconfident". Let's be honest, someone is probably getting told that their character sheet is problematic and needs several major changes before it is acceptable.

Even so, I touched on the part where I think that it is a cohesive story written by a decent author I feel like that by itself can go a long way, even with a protagonist who likely wouldn't pass muster in a casual roleplay. As far as the overarching themes you mention go, I will admit that these are a couple of the more classic tropes that I am rather fond of. Like I mentioned in my last post, I am genuinely interested in seeing exactly which point he switches tropes from being a Gary Stu to being more of a Broken Ace. It hasn't happened by the end of the first book, but that transition is part of what is keeping the series on my reading list. Beyond that, the whole "whoops I accidentally broke the world by doing my irresponsible main character shenanigans" is one of those super standard first disc plots of RPGs that I happen to love playing through. XD

[Penny]

@0 Azzy 0 I agree that Kvothe would be a questionable character in an RPG, but that is true of a majority of characters in novels.

Rand: I'm playing the foreordained saviour and destroyer of the world with a dead guy in my head that will comment on my progress!
Nynaeve: I'm the strongest channeler in the history of the world and super bitchy for no reason. Also I can only channel when I'm angry, that will be an easy flaw to ignore
Elaine: I'm a princess who is also super strong at magic and for some reason can make Ter'Angreal even though that is knowledge that has literally been lost by every aes sedai even though they spend their lives studying them.

Also with in three years we will literally be able to easily defeat thousand year old veterans who know every trick in the book. Books that don't exist anymore.

and on and on. I'd have had questions for all of those players.

His powers and talents never advance his true goals, they nearly always hurt, it is usually human acts of kindness that cut the Gordian knot for him.

Although it is super convenient that he can play the lute down a string it is one of my favorite parts in the book because of the discussion he has with his friends afterwards.

[POOHEAD189]

Under a section labeled "Character strengths" he has written "He is amazing at everything he tries. If needed, he could learn and entire language in a day and a half or get officially certified as a musician on a lute with a broken string.".

@0 Azzy 0

That's better than some power players I've known, sadly enough.

If we're going to use the RPG comparison, I think the difference between being a power playing Gary Stu and just high leveled is the explanation behind it. For instance, I can see Matrim Cauthon in WoT being a good staff fighter with a high charisma modifier and bluff skill, but it was the DM's that gave him his A class strategy mind by leading him through the the doorway in Rhudiean (if that is the reasoning. I'm rusty). And he got the cool anti-magic medallion. These being given to him through the DM's story, so to me it's not so much of a Gary Stu problem because it had to be earned and experienced.

Ran I won't even touch, and Mat/Perrin are Ta'veren so they're lucky in general, but I do feel like the latter two had some of their abilities explained and gained throughout the story. Same with Egwene and...well maybe not Nynaeve.

My question is, did Kvothe ever have his abilities explained or gained, or did he start out great at everything?

[Penny]

He is a musical prodigy who travels with basically tinkers as a child where he picks up his musical and linguistic skill. THey pick up a wizardy type who travels with them and tutors him in the other skills. Its not like there is no explanation for his skills, but he is certainly described as a prodigy even in the fiction.

[Penny]

I actually find the child to destined hero plot device to be a little tired. David Eddings Elenium is an excellent example of how you can be totally competent and still up against it.

[POOHEAD189]

I'm very glad the destined hero thing is not used nearly as much, nowadays. I'll probably read the book at some point and give my 2 cents when I do. It sounds entertaining.

[0 Azzy 0]

My question is, did Kvothe ever have his abilities explained or gained, or did he start out great at everything?

@POOHEAD189

As you might have gathered, the word "prodigy" is pretty much the cornerstone of explanation for him being so skilled at virtually everything he decided to put his mind to. XD

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I agree that Kvothe would be a questionable character in an RPG, but that is true of a majority of characters in novels.

@Penny

You are absolutely correct there, with no real argument from me. I feel like I even added in a couple criticisms of my own for that series back near the beginning of this thread. I'd be more than happy to switch gears to discussing some of the more groanworthy tropes present in The Wheel of Time if you want, since there is no shortage of content to cover. Fortunately, this also happens to bring us into the territory where I've been sorta aiming for when it comes to The Name of the Wind. Mostly in the sense that, while I feel The Kingkiller Chronicles and Patrick Rothfuss certainly deserve a metaphorical seat at the table alongside other great fantasy series and authors, it certainly does not belong up on a pedestal above them (to be fair, if I didn't think it had a place at the table I don't think I would have recommended it twice already in this thread).

Once we're into the territory of just one good book among similar company, we are at a place where things are easier to contrast based more on personal preferences. For instance: on the one hand, you could see the painfully slow pacing in the beginning of the series in The Wheel of Time and contrast it with the relatively good pacing throughout the book in The Name of the Wind. On the other hand, you might note that The Wheel of Time has pretty decent representation when it comes to male and female characters, while The Name of the Wind can't even meet the exceptionally low bar set by the Bechdal test and has named female characters outnumbered around 5-1 by named male characters. At the end of the day it will probably come down to which tropes appeal to you and which ones you find more grating. Like you have mentioned, the whole "destined hero" is certainly an industry standard which might not appeal so much to some. On the other hand, other people might find the whole "hubris" idea as a central plot device to be old, stale and not particularly compelling even back in the day when it was the staple in Greek tragedies.

---

Fun side note: I like that you mention disliking the "child to destined hero" trope, since I'm pretty sure Robert Jordan isn't super fond of it either. On the Wheel of Time audiobooks, the first several have an interview with him regarding this sort of trope. He brings up the idea of your Gandalf-equse character wandering into a tavern one night and going: "Righto. Adventure time, prophecy blah blah. Suit up." whereupon the main character pretty meekly acquiesces and moves on to greatness. He says something to the effect of: "Where I come from, if someone walked into a pub and told you that you were the chosen one and needed to go with him on an adventure, you'd buy him a drink and slip out the back door when he isn't looking.". Pretty sure that's why the main three dudes spend the first several books of The Wheel of Time essentially going: "OMG crazy magic lady leave me alone!" as they try to figure out a way to ditch her and get back to normal lives.

[Penny]

if someone walked into a pub and told you that you were the chosen one and needed to go with him on an adventure, you'd buy him a drink and slip out the back door when he isn't looking.".

@0 Azzy 0

Why have I never used this to frame an Rp?!

[0 Azzy 0]

<Snipped quote by 0 Azzy 0>

Why have I never used this to frame an Rp?!

@Penny

There's no time like the present! XD

[POOHEAD189]

To be fair, Gandalf doing that to Bilbo did not have Bilbo agreeing. He was simply too polite to refuse 13 guests and then after hearing their plight and pretty much denying it, he acquiesced after they'd already left and regretted it near immediately.

It actually irked me how Rand, Mat, and Perrin were still in denial of what they were doing after the first book, much less the 2nd and somewhat the third. I love The Eye of the World because I felt like it was a lot of various fantasy adventures in one. I think after half the book, even a normal person wouldn't be in such denial like they were. @0 Azzy 0

[0 Azzy 0]

@POOHEAD189
I do remember quite often thinking things along the lines of: "Why can't you just act right!" a whole lot of times in this series when characters were being particularly obtuse or stubborn. That being said, I also remember reframing my perspective for the first couple books as: "oh right, they are literally just a bunch ignorant children who all grew up on farms with a worldview that didn't extend beyond ten miles from their homes who basically think they've been kidnapped by a manipulative witch".

[0 Azzy 0]

I figure, even if they have a pretty damn persuasive reasoning behind it, you're gunna push back if what they're saying is: "You definitely need to conquer the world, fight satan, go crazy and die."

[POOHEAD189]

It wasn't even the Dragon part, though Rand did fully accept it once he had proof when he pulled Callandor from the Stone of Tear. It was kind of surprising how he went from 0 to 100 after that lol.

I more meant stuff like in book 2 when Rand kept denying he 'isn't a bloody Lord!' And while that was technically true, you could easily tell he meant it because he didn't think he was worth it rather than him lacking the actual title. But I can see you kind of felt the same lol. I'm mostly thinking, if you've survived Darkfriend assassins, cursed daggers, met with the Magical Women KGB U.N., survived the Blight, killed Trollocs, met with beings you never knew existed, and then a princess takes note of you and you're like 'Light! But I'm just a farm boy!' I'm like "DUDE."

I will say the denial could be very funny. The first time I read it, I thought it was hilarious how Perrin thought Rand was such a ladies man compared to him, and Rand thought Perrin was such a ladies man in return. "She kissed me. Rand/Perrin would know what to do right about now. He's always been great with girls."

Oddly enough the female cast didn't have near the same denial. Sure it was there somewhat, but they seemed way more stubborn and fiery and would look down their noses at rich lords because...Idk. @0 Azzy 0

[Penny]

To be fair Rand does have 3 women madly in love with him for literally no reason I can determine. It must be going around because Lan and Nynaeve are also magically in love by divine fiat and no other reason. At least Perrin and Faile are halfway believable.