State-Church Separation

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

The Nexerus said
The Reichskonkordat was about the self-preservation of the Church. Catholic Churches in Germany were defenceless against molestation once the Nazis took power, and the Vatican was quite literally surrounded by fascists.I maintain that Hitler was not Christian, in spite of the irrelevance of his religious affiliation to his actions. When he used Christian symbols (which even itself wouldn't say definitively) he used them alongside pagan ones, and he both publicly and privately opposed the existence of the Church and their teachings as blights against the natural order.

"Hey! YOU CAN'T DO THAT!!! YOU'RE USING COMMON SENSE!!!"

[Gwazi Magnum]

ActRaiserTheReturned said For now, I'll say, all those Bible verses you came up with are in the OT.

Which is still the Bible, still Christianity and still stuff God approved.

And even then if you look at the Bible there's not really much to say the OT can be ignored, but a lot saying we should still listen to it.
On top of that, why would an all knowing god make rules that were later meant to be changed? And on top of that, if they were meant to be changed why would we go ahead and say they are to always be obeyed if they weren't supposed to?

ActRaiserTheReturned said Not one of them are based on Christianity.

Is it in the Christian Bible? Yes? Then you're right, it's not based on Christianity, it is Christianity.

ActRaiserTheReturned said Technically you would say that while those acts could be repeatable, some of them clearly aren't even by OT standards, and the ones that are at least repeatable like the Levitical Laws still aren't Christian, and definitely not repeatable.

If it's in the Christian bible then it's Christian.
If it's mentioned/supported multiple time's then it's repeatable.

So according to your own God, these acts you label as barbaric are both Christian and repeatable.

ActRaiserTheReturned said I don't think Science is contradictory. However, certain long standing hypothesis were once held as theories until more information had been collected and proven past hypothesis such as theories as false. ((For that matter, even if Creationism is wrong, it doesn't mean Evolution is correct, since more data can be collected, enough to conceivably come to the conclusion that there's some other answer)).

Science already admits that anything it says could be proven wrong.
But they go with what has the most compelling proof and evidence at the time.

Evolution has a lot of it, Religion has none other than the Bible.
Which doesn't even count because it's evidence on account of it claiming to be evidence.

Which makes as much sense as me going "I'm psychic because I say so. I say so because I'm Psychic" and never doing anything to show I'm Psychic but expecting people to believe me.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Magic Magnum:
Under the logic that whatever is in the Bible is approved by God, do you then come to the conclusion that witchcraft is approved by God?

[Gwazi Magnum]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
Magic Magnum:Under the logic that whatever is in the Bible is approved by God, do you then come to the conclusion that witchcraft is approved by God?

Did God allow his disciples to practice witchcraft?
Did he order his followers to do witchcraft?

Because that's exactly what he did with things such as rape, stoning of children etc.

[The Nexerus]

^ I'd love for you to quote a bible passage wherein Jesus tells his disciples go out and rape someone.

Magic Magnum said If it's in the Christian bible then it's Christian.

That's not remotely true. Besides the actions specifically prohibited in the Bible, which under your logic would be considered Christian for some reason, there's also the matter of the Old and New Covenants and their associated commandments.

Christianity isn't a derivative of Judaism any more. Jewish laws and traditions aren't compelled onto Christians.

[Turtlicious]

Hitler wasn't a Christian.

Though he did behave much like the Catholics did, Idk why everyone seems to hate jews.

[The Nexerus]

Turtlicious said
Hitler wasn't a Christian.Though he did behave much like the Catholics did, Idk why everyone seems to hate jews.

Why did early Americans have such a distaste for the British?

[Gwazi Magnum]

The Nexerus said ^ I'd love for you to quote a bible passage wherein Jesus tells his disciples go out and rape someone.

Jesus specifically never did, but God had allowed/told his disciples to several times.

I made a list just a few posts ago so just go back if you want to see it.

The Nexerus said That's not remotely true. Besides the actions specifically prohibited in the Bible, which under your logic would be considered Christian for some reason, there's also the matter of the Old and New Covenants and their associated commandments.Christianity isn't a derivative of Judaism any more. Jewish laws and traditions aren't compelled onto Christians.

Please read one post of mine before the one you were replying to.
I literally just addressed this.

[Vortex]

Turtlicious said
Hitler wasn't a Christian.Though he did behave much like the Catholics did, Idk why everyone seems to hate jews.

Hitler said the following

"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have a duty to be a fighter for truth and justice"

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the almighty creator"

"Who says I am not under e special protection of god?"

"My feelings as a Christian, points me towards my lord and savior as a fighter"

He literally said
"I am so, as always before a catholic and will always remain so"

[So Boerd]

Vortex said
Hitler said the following"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have a duty to be a fighter for truth and justice""I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the almighty creator""Who says I am not under e special protection of god?""My feelings as a Christian, points me towards my lord and savior as a fighter"He literally said"I am so, as always before a catholic and will always remain so"

That is what he said in public. Privately he admired the warlike Japanese religion and Islam and loathed how peaceful Christianity is, which is the best compliment my religion ever recieved.

"You see it's been our misfortune to have the wrong religion. Why didn't we have the religion of the Japanese, who regard sacrifice for the Fatherland as the highest good? The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness?"

[The Nexerus]

Magnum, you clearly either didn't read or didn't comprehend the post you just replied to. The Jewish laws and customs outlined in the Old Testament have no baring on Christianity, and the story of the Israelites is not an example of how Christians are called to act.

Jesus directly contradicts many Old Testament passages. Christianity is the religion of Christ, of Jesus of Nazareth, not Abraham and the Israelites. If a piece of legislation is revised, you cannot defend yourself in court by saying that your actions were in line with the older, now obsolete legislation. The story of the Israelites serves as context for the arrival of Jesus.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Vortex said
Hitler said the following"As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have a duty to be a fighter for truth and justice""I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the almighty creator""Who says I am not under e special protection of god?""My feelings as a Christian, points me towards my lord and savior as a fighter"He literally said"I am so, as always before a catholic and will always remain so"

We are the joyous Hitler youth,
We do not need any Christian virtue
Our leader is our savior
The Pope and Rabbi shall be gone
We want to be pagans once again.”

- Song sung by Hitler youth

“The heaviest blow which ever struck humanity was Christianity; Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew.”

- Norman Cameron and R.H. Stevens, trans., (Oxford, 1953), Hitler's Table-Talk, p. 7

[So Boerd]

The Nexerus said
Magnum, you clearly either didn't read or didn't comprehend the post you just replied to. The Jewish laws and customs outlined in the Old Testament have no baring on Christianity, and the story of the Israelites is not an example of how Christians are called to act.Jesus directly contradicts many Old Testament passages. Christianity is the religion of Christ, of Jesus of Nazareth, not Abraham and the Israelites. If a piece of legislation is revised, you cannot defend yourself in court by saying that your actions were in line with the older, now obsolete legislation. The story of the Israelites serves as context for the arrival of Jesus.

Full disclosure, God in the old testament was Jesus.

Let me adopt a different tactic. Let's say you have an 8 year old child. What do you tell them about fire? Don't play with fire of course. Does that mean you can't tell them when they can use fire? Of course not. God is omniscient and knows when it is acceptable to kill. And who does God tell? He almost always tells His prophet, and if anyone kills without permission, they are punished. See: Cain. Cain played with fire.

[Brovo]

So Boerd said
Full disclosure, God in the old testament was Jesus.Let me adopt a different tactic. Let's say you have an 8 year old child. What do you tell them about fire? Don't play with fire of course. Does that mean you can't tell them when they can use fire? Of course not. God is omniscient and knows when it is acceptable to kill. And who does God tell? He almost always tells His prophet, and if anyone kills without permission, they are punished. See: Cain. Cain played with fire.

Except that God created all the problems that exist in the universe. Every single one. He created rape, he created murder, he created sin, and the compulsions to commit those acts. He created all of these things, every, single, last, one, by posing an impossible test: Creating two creatures without knowledge, one before the other, giving them eternity in paradise, and then telling them to not eat from a tree, which he made easily within their reach, with very appealing looking fruit by all accounts, right in the middle of the fucking garden they lived in. Then, as if that wasn't enough to create a test which would invariable fail (totally ignorant creature + curiosity = eventual failure to obey authority figure, given eternity, that makes it assured of success), he created Satan, the talking snake, who easily fooled the completely ignorant, completely naive, completely defenseless creatures.

If he is omnipotent and omniscient, and created the universe and everything within it, including the laws by which it is governed, and human nature, then God created the very evil he condemns in mankind, and he is not a God worth worshiping by any stretch of the imagination. This is exactly like leaving an ignorant child in a room with a cookie jar. Then leaving someone in that room to tempt them to eat from the cookie jar. For an eternity. And when they eventually succumb being naive and foolish, you burst into the room and eternally curse them with aging and sickness and severe flaws of character and damn them to eternal hellfire if they don't praise you enough.

This is pretty much the very definition of Stockholm Syndrome.

So the idea that God would ever create a situation where it is acceptable to kill someone else he created... Is complete nonsense. It should never be acceptable for a loving creator God, but fact of the matter is, the Bible paints it pretty clearly: He's not a loving God, or a forgiving one. He's an abusive tyrant with an ego to match his unlimited power.

EDIT

Hmm. That came off more harsh than I originally intended. My apologies.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Except that God created all the problems that exist in the universe. Every single one. He created rape, he created murder, he created sin, and the compulsions to commit those acts. He created all of these things, every, single, last, one, by posing an impossible test: Creating two creatures without knowledge, one before the other, giving them eternity in paradise, and then telling them to not eat from a tree, which he made easily within their reach, with very appealing looking fruit by all accounts, right in the middle of the fucking garden they lived in. Then, as if that wasn't enough to create a test which would invariable fail (totally ignorant creature + curiosity = eventual failure to obey authority figure, given eternity, that makes it assured of success), he created Satan, the talking snake, who easily fooled the completely ignorant, completely naive, completely defenseless creatures.

Look. If you make a banana cream pie, a french silk chocolate pie, key lime or whatever. It's good. That's what God did. Satan came along and pooped in the pie.

Is it God's fault now?

[Brovo]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
Look. If you make a banana cream pie, a french silk chocolate pie, key lime or whatever. It's good. That's what God did. Satan came along and pooped in the pie. Is it God's fault now?

God created Satan, and his nature, and being omniscient knew exactly what Satan was going to do, when he was going to do it, and yet, he did nothing.

Because God is not a good person. At least, not in a narrative sense.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Brovo said
God created Satan, and his nature, and being omniscient knew exactly what Satan was going to do, when he was going to do it, and yet, he did nothing.Because God is not a good person. At least, not in a narrative sense.

God did this precisely because he is omniscient. He doesn't just have logical scientific knowledge, he knows the secrets to life's mysteries. . . everything. He knows the future, the beginning, and the middle. . . he knows everything, the end from the beginning. He knows anything from a quadrillion years in the future. He is doing things the best way because they are the best ways.

For example, let's say there's a little boy. He was born with damaged feet, and the Doctor's tell the father he will never walk. The father however, has found a way to surgically make him walk. Say that this is in a day before anesthesia? That's going to be one hell of a surgery for the poor little tyke. In the mean time however, there will be pain and anguish.

Then, the little boy can walk.

[Brovo]

ActRaiserTheReturned said God did this precisely because he is omniscient. He doesn't just have logical scientific knowledge, he knows the secrets to life's mysteries. . . everything.

Wut. How can he not have logical scientific knowledge, he created the universe, and everything in it. He created everything science finds. He created human capacity for science. How does this even make sense as a statement. This is like saying a computer can't do math but created calculators.

ActRaiserTheReturned said He knows the future, the beginning, and the middle. . . he knows everything, the end from the beginning. He knows anything from a quadrillion years in the future. He is doing things the best way because they are the best ways.

What. That makes even less sense than before. He knows everything, he created everything. How is morality supposed to play into this at all? Why would anyone need to be killed, or raped, or destroyed, or sent to eternal hellfire, or otherwise... When he created and knows everything. You can't define him as a moral entity if he has the power and the knowledge to stop all evil... And then doesn't. Just, simply chooses not to.

And no, don't give me the free will argument. You just said it yourself he knows the future, everything is already written out, there is no free will in a universe where the future is set in stone by an omnipotent being who created you exactly the way you are. And the universe. And everything in it.

ActRaiserTheReturned said For example, let's say there's a little boy. He was born with damaged feet, and the Doctor's tell the father he will never walk. The father however, has found a way to surgically make him walk. Say that this is in a day before anesthesia? That's going to be one hell of a surgery for the poor little tyke. In the mean time however, there will be pain and anguish. Then, the little boy can walk.

Or he could just give the little boy the ability to walk and the knowledge about how lucky he is that he can walk. You know. Like a moral person would. Not a complete monster that gets off to seeing human suffering because... Reasons?...

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Wut. How can he not have logical scientific knowledge, he created the universe, and everything in it. He created everything science finds. He created human capacity for science. How does this even make sense as a statement. This is like saying a computer can't do math but created calculators.

Ummm. . . I said "He doesn't JUST", "Just" is a word used to mean "He doesn't ONLY" you know. "God doesn't only know all scientific and logical knowledge. He knows all things. The ways of wisdom, everything".

Or he could just give the little boy the ability to walk and the knowledge about how lucky he is that he can walk. You know. Like a moral person would. Not a complete monster that gets off to seeing human suffering because... Reasons?...

Metaphor sir. Metaphor. I mean, you could live in a perfect, dull, uninteresting world, with everything being daisies, flowers, sun light, unicorns and fluffy pegasi with smiley faces everywhere. And let it be that way forever and ever. You monster.

Or, you could have this toilet of a planet, with it's good and bad moments, die, be taken to Jesus, live forever in eternal bliss that makes even the best marriages in this world look like a hand shake in comparison.

[Brovo]

ActRaiserTheReturned said Ummm. . . I said "He doesn't JUST", "Just" is a word used to mean "He doesn't ONLY" you know. "God doesn't only know all scientific and logical knowledge. He knows all things. The ways of wisdom, everything".

Misread you, sorry, my bad.

Still, knows all things, can't figure out how to make a universe without suffering and madness and evil and damning billions of his own children to die horrible. Hm. Not a very smart god.

ActRaiserTheReturned said Metaphor sir. Metaphor. I mean, you could live in a perfect, dull, uninteresting world, with everything being daisies, flowers, sun light, unicorns and fluffy pegasi with smiley faces everywhere. And let it be that way forever and ever. You monster.

Hm... Nope. Not interested in such a world. Because I'm mortal, and have mortal whims, and mortal flaws. Eternity in paradise is boring, which is what the bible promises me for believing and worshipping the tyrant deity that took it away in the first place.

...Makes me wonder if there's also a tree of knowledge in heaven you aren't supposed to bite from.

ActRaiserTheReturned said Or, you could have this toilet of a planet, with it's good and bad moments, die, be taken to Jesus, live forever in eternal bliss that makes even the best marriages in this world look like a hand shake in comparison.

So basically, let me get this straight, from a narrative perspective here.

A god who knows everything and has unlimited power created the universe and everything in it. There he creates a paradise for some fuck off race of creatures he made in his image, complete with having the sewage system networked into the entertainment and procreation system. Then he creates an impossible to pass test, and creates a seducing monster in the guise of a beautiful angel, then is shocked when it betrays him despite already knowing it would. Snake thing then talks to dirt man and rib woman and after failing the impossible test they are damned forever, all their children are damned forever, and so on.

Then, he continues to create human beings, or at the very least their programming and hard wiring and so forth because he's a techie like that. Fast forward past all the genocides and rapes and the world wide flood and so on to the present day. He programs me to be a skeptic and not believe things at face value, then leaves utterly no evidence behind that would convince me to believe in him, then sends me to be damned in hell and burn for eternity because I did exactly as he programmed me to do.

Meanwhile, you and others like you will go to the eternal paradise you say is so very boring and which we can't have immediately because for some reason you have to suffer for 50-100ish years before he will love you enough to give you the thing he originally gave your great great great great great great ancestors but decided to take away because reasons nobody can comprehend.

Yes.

This makes complete sense for a loving, forgiving God.