State-Church Separation

[Brovo]

So Boerd said
Simple misunderstanding. My brain is not, at all, me. Destroy my brain, I still exist. He can alter the brain, not the soul.

He created souls. If he didn't, he did not create everything, which goes against the core of his mythos.

[So Boerd]

"Not believing in him is sufficient punishment to be sent to hell even if you're a girl scout supporting nurse who sacrifices everything to save babies. Don't believe in god? Go to hell. Again, immoral. Again, not worth worship, even if he did exist."

Not actually true.

[Brovo]

So Boerd said
"Not believing in him is sufficient punishment to be sent to hell even if you're a girl scout supporting nurse who sacrifices everything to save babies. Don't believe in god? Go to hell. Again, immoral. Again, not worth worship, even if he did exist."Not actually true.

Yes. Yes it is. It's all over the bible. In the new testament and the old testament. It's literally one of the most consistent themes I saw when I read the bible: That if you don't let God into your soul, if you don't believe in him, if you don't worship him, you go to hell.

Period.

Even Jesus does this, and he was a pretty chill guy otherwise.

[So Boerd]

Brovo said
He created souls. If he didn't, he did not create everything, which goes against the core of his mythos.

He created souls, not what they were composed of. Intelligence, the essence of YOU, was not made by Him. The soul, your incorporeal form and how you interface with reality, was created by Him.

[Brovo]

So Boerd said
He created souls, not what they were composed of. Intelligence, the essence of YOU, was not made by Him. The soul, your incorporeal form and how you interface with reality, was created by Him.

... What?

No. That's nonsense. He either created everything, or he didn't. There were no elements, no light, nothing, before God. This is explicitly stated in the book of Genesis. Ergo to create souls, he must have created their base components, including intelligence, including the essence of "you". Otherwise it would not exist, according to the very bible that claims he exists.

If anything, at all, violates that core piece of his mythos--that he is the great creator deity, that he made everything--then the basis of his existence is in jeopardy. This is why a lot of Christians (no offense) tend to fight against things like evolution: It removes God from being necessary, more and more, as time goes on and our understanding of the universe expands.

Also, yeah, loads of verses saying that if you don't worship God, you go to hell. In fact, some of those even say worshiping him is the only qualification: Ask Jesus for forgiveness, go to heaven. Period. Committed mass genocide? Go to heaven anyway if you ask Jesus to forgive you.

[So Boerd]

I believe I just said He didn't create everything.

Now, when you're done telling me what I believe, rather than asking, we can continue.

Also, citation from Genesis?

[Brovo]

So Boerd said
I believe I just said He didn't create everything.Now, when you're done telling me what I believe, rather than asking, we can continue.Also, citation from Genesis?

Damn it's been a while since I've read the bible, but, lets see... Hmm...

Well, genesis' first verses depending on version either go straight to God creating the heavens and the earth, or state "in the beginning there was nothing, and then god created etc etc etc".

Still, humans and living things don't exist prior to the earth, which didn't exist prior to god, so no souls yet if we're speaking strictly canonically. However, the truly damning piece, is this one, in revelations, in the new testament, since most people seem to hold the new testament above the old one in terms of which to believe in the event of contradictions.

Revelations 22:13: I am Alpha and Omega, beginning and end, first and last.

First. He was there before the essence of "you" was, he was there before anything else was. He was the first of anything. And created you. And your soul. And so on.

And that was five minutes of rifling through my bible at home and then grabbing an online link for the revelations one.

Anyway, if he didn't create everything, then the core of his mythos has been violated, and there's no reason to believe anything else in the bible, considering he constantly claims creating everything, too. (John 1:3)

[So Boerd]

Another misunderstanding. That John chapter said nothing was made which was made without him. Obviously He did not create that which was not made. Clearly you don't think God made Himself?

First in time, or first as in supremacy?

Genesis says God made the Heaven and the earth.

And, no, that is not what Genesis says.

[Brovo]

So Boerd said
Another misunderstanding. That John chapter said nothing was made which was made without him. Obviously He did not create that which was not made. Clearly you don't think God made Himself?First in time, or first as in supremacy? Genesis says God made the Heaven and the earth.And, no, that is not what Genesis says.

... Read the book of Genesis. God creates the Heavens and the Earth as his first act. Then he makes humans. That's in canonical order in every modern version of the bible I know of.

And first in time probably. Considering he said "first and last", "alpha and omega", and most importantly, "beginning and ending".

And congratulations you've stumbled on a serious problem with god. If god made the universe, who made god? Is there an eternal stretching conga line of creators for creators?

... Or, maybe, just... You know... Possible... It's a fictional book... And the authors didn't think about that little plot hole.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

God/Jesus has all over over both the spirit and material world. He can, if he wanted to, do anything he wished.
The only sense in limitation he has is that he is all-benevolent, thus, he cannot do which is against his will.

[Brovo]

ActRaiserTheReturned said
God/Jesus has all over over both the spirit and material world. He can, if he wanted to, do anything he wished. The only sense in limitation he has is that he is all-benevolent, thus, he cannot do which is against his will.

Huh?

If he was all benevolent, there would be no evil, and no random trial by fire and pain and brimstone and so on, for a predeclared destiny.

[So Boerd]

Yeah, there is a series, which at any time may begin with a God who has existed infinitely.

Anyway, that would be when he made our bodies. Our essences are co-eternal.

When it says beginning and the end, I don't know what that means, since I certainly don't think he is going to end us at some point. I will look into it, but if you are basing your entire criticism on a rhetorical phrase, I think you know the argument is weak.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

Brovo said
Huh?If he was all benevolent, there would be no evil, and no random trial by fire and pain and brimstone and so on, for a predeclared destiny.

/sarcasm
You're right, if there was a God, you would finally shut the farg up!
/kidding

Look. There is a sense of humility that must come before the trueness of the spirit may enter into the Human condition. If you don't have the humility to let God from what you already know, it is unlikely you will ever stop asking why because you don't admit that you do know all you need to accept God into yourself.

[So Boerd]

Just looked into it, it means God is eternal, which I already agree with.

[Brovo]

So Boerd said
Yeah, there is a series, which at any time may begin with a God who has existed infinitely.Anyway, that would be when he made our bodies. Our essences are co-eternal.When it says beginning and the end, I don't know what that means, since I certainly don't think he is going to end us at some point. I will look into it, but if you are basing your entire criticism on a rhetorical phrase, I think you know the argument is weak.

... What? The entire book of revelations is literally doomsday prophecy about how God is going to end the world. Four horsemen of the apocalypse and so on, and how it'll be reborn into some kind of new agey hippie heaven thing.

There is nothing in the bible that says your soul is co-eternal to god, or that there are any creators who made god, and in fact, god states he is the first, the beginning. That means there was none before him. Unless he's lying. Or the author made... Another plot hole...

Your supposition is merely that: Supposition. Nothing in your own holy book supports it and we both know that.

ActRaiserTheReturned said
/sarcasmYou're right, if there was a God, you would finally shut the farg up! /kiddingLook. There is a sense of humility that must come before the trueness of the spirit may enter into the Human condition. If you don't have the humility to let God from what you already know, it is unlikely you will ever stop asking why because you don't admit that you do know all you need to accept God into yourself.

There is no sense of humility in telling someone that if they don't worship a genocidal maniac that they will go into a place and burn for all eternity.

Would you worship Hitler? No? Why not? How about Kim Jong, he says he is a divine being who can kill you with his mind, will you not worship him? Why not? The difference between him and God is that at least he physically exists. He already has more credibility than god does on that fact alone, and we both know he's a complete looney.

So Boerd said
Just looked into it, it means God is eternal, which I already agree with.

Yes. That's part of its meaning.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

There is no sense of humility in telling someone that if they don't worship a genocidal maniac that they will go into a place and burn for all eternity.

Would you worship Hitler? No? Why not? How about Kim Jong, he says he is a divine being who can kill you with his mind, will you not worship him? Why not? The difference between him and God is that at least he physically exists. He already has more credibility than god does on that fact alone, and we both know he's a complete looney.

You are incapable of seeing very much of God, just like I am. I am no better than you. You are no better than me. Neither of us, no matter how moral, smart, dumb or wicked are enough different from each other to be good by God's standards. That's because God is infinitely better than all of our entire species combined. He sees things as they are, and sees infinitely into not just our present, past and mortal future condition, but infinitely into the great beyond. Possibly even beyond time as we know it.

We see God as a germ could possibly comprehend the body of a man immune to disease. There's nothing we can do to comprehend it, but we are a part of his body, like um. . . necessary bacteria, as it were. (Being metaphorical here). This man is a brilliant scientist intelligent enough to transform us into a man from the singular cell we are. Our only requirement for venturing into the great unknown is to board his nano-machine vessels before we are eaten away by the white blood cells! ;)

Hitler tried to kill God by killing many of his poor innocent bacteria, and incited a war against valiant white blood cells in a bid for bodily conquest! Fortunately God's white blood cells rid the vile Hitler of his evil menace!

Sadly though, the time for a bacteria's life span is very short. The only way for us to live forever, is to enter into the nano-machines. If we don't enter into the nano-machine ships, we get thrown up! :(
Thus, we end up living in the eternal hell of the sewers forever!

[So Boerd]

Am I not allowed to have beliefs outside the Bible? Does not say that in the Bible.

Revelation, not revelations, is not about the end of Earth, not my soul.

[Svenn]

All this rage and repetition...

[Gwazi Magnum]

Well, Brovo basically argued most of the points I would of argued anyways. Just a few area's I feel the need to add in here! XD

So Boerd said
Because He doesn't. He can't change your soul. He can speak with you, explain to you, but cannot make you learn or more importantly understand anything, as making you understand takes away your free will. Jesus had to physically suffer every pain so he could understand it.

If God can't do something then it's not all powerful, so your God/Bible is lying or once again as Brovo says, the author had another loop hole.

So Boerd said
Is it the mark of foolishness to admit one does not know something? There are secrets in this universe that elude you, there a secrets of religion which elude him. I will answer all your questions I have answers for.

Science even admits it doesn't know things. But it at least gives evidence and proof upfront for what it does know (or has the clearest idea on).
While God is literally not giving out any proof or evidence and just expecting you to believe, and them complicates it with not only all the proof/evidence towards science, but allowing thousands of other religions to exist which all operate on the exact same logic and arguments you are.

So Boerd said
I believe I just said He didn't create everything.Now, when you're done telling me what I believe, rather than asking, we can continue.Also, citation from Genesis?

He's not telling you what you believe. He's telling you what the Bible and your God has said.

And sorry to break it to you, but your Bible is Christianity. The religion was absolutely nothing to stand on if not the Bible.
If you're going to argue away, dismiss, disagree with the Bible etc then you are effectly arguing and disagreeing with Christianity and your God.
In which case calling yourself a Christian would be an inaccurate statement.

ActRaiserTheReturned said
You are incapable of seeing very much of God, just like I am. I am no better than you. You are no better than me. Neither of us, no matter how moral, smart, dumb or wicked are enough different from each other to be good by God's standards. That's because God is infinitely better than all of our entire species combined. He sees things as they are, and sees infinitely into not just our present, past and mortal future condition, but infinitely into the great beyond. Possibly even beyond time as we know it. We see God as a germ could possibly comprehend the body of a man immune to disease. There's nothing we can do to comprehend it, but we are a part of his body, like um. . . necessary bacteria, as it were. (Being metaphorical here). This man is a brilliant scientist intelligent enough to transform us into a man from the singular cell we are. Our only requirement for venturing into the great unknown is to board his nano-machine vessels before we are eaten away by the white blood cells! ;)Hitler tried to kill God by killing many of his poor innocent bacteria, and incited a war against valiant white blood cells in a bid for bodily conquest! Fortunately God's white blood cells rid the vile Hitler of his evil menace! Sadly though, the time for a bacteria's life span is very short. The only way for us to live forever, is to enter into the nano-machines. If we don't enter into the nano-machine ships, we get thrown up! :(Thus, we end up living in the eternal hell of the sewers forever!

"You are incapable of seeing very much of Muhammad, just like I am. I am no better than you. You are no better than me. Neither of us, no matter how moral, smart, dumb or wicked are enough different from each other to be good by Muhammad's standards. That's because Muhammad is infinitely better than all of our entire species combined. He sees things as they are, and sees infinitely into not just our present, past and mortal future condition, but infinitely into the great beyond. Possibly even beyond time as we know it. We see Muhammad as a germ could possibly comprehend the body of a man immune to disease. There's nothing we can do to comprehend it, but we are a part of his body, like um. . . necessary bacteria, as it were. (Being metaphorical here). This man is a brilliant scientist intelligent enough to transform us into a man from the singular cell we are. Our only requirement for venturing into the great unknown is to board his nano-machine vessels before we are eaten away by the white blood cells! ;)Hitler tried to kill Muhammad by killing many of his poor innocent bacteria, and incited a war against valiant white blood cells in a bid for bodily conquest! Fortunately Muhammad's white blood cells rid the vile Hitler of his evil menace! Sadly though, the time for a bacteria's life span is very short. The only way for us to live forever, is to enter into the nano-machines. If we don't enter into the nano-machine ships, we get thrown up! :(Thus, we end up living in the eternal hell of the sewers forever!"

Still agree with your argument? :P

Muhammad and God are basically the exact same, both religions, both have holy books, both promote highly immoral acts.
Both give no real evidence for their existence and rely on faith, both will torture for eternally for being how you were made.
Both created and allowed evil in the world and committed great genocides.

Both require you to abandon thinking and asking questions to and to simply believe and accept.
So let's just assume for one second your argument of simply believing in God held weight, and that questioning things was pointless.

Why should I be a Christian? When there's all these other religions out there operating on the exact same logic?

[Gat]

The fundamental problem with taking the bible and most other holy books at face value is simple really. They're outdated.

They were god knows how many years ago (pardon the pun) in a time where cultures were vastly different. On top of that language and our understanding of the world around us has evolved considerably since then, to even try and take them at face value these days is simple folly, which unfortunately is something alot of people do.