The Isla Visa Shooter, Elliot Roger, was disturbing to the highest level

[K-97]

I've been watching some of his videos on his youtube channel and damn...this guy clearly had something wrong with him.

Most of his videos are basically him whining about how shitty his life is despite the fact his family is rich (He's the Son of the Assistant Director of the Hunger Games, He's 22 and his car is pretty fucking good for his age) and compared to others his age he's got it amazingly. And yet his obsession with women drove him to murder, this one aspect of his life made him feel committing mass murder was actually a solution.

This guy clearly had the hugest ego I've ever seen (And I know people with huge egos, this guy just beats them by miles), the arrogance astounds me. He reminds me of one of those guys who has a serious case of Nice Guy Syndrome or has been listening to one too many Pick Up Artist Videos except taken to an absolute extreme. He literally thought just by existing he should get girls.

And you want to know what the worse part is, for any of you who go on Reddit apparently some of this guys videos have appeared on r/cringe a couple of days before this mass murder happened. He was just like all those other cringe worthy virgins who believe that their entire lives are defined by women, complain about their lack of women expecting them to just appear and are literally raised on material from r/redpill and Extreme Men's Rights, except this guy went on a rampage.

It almost makes me wonder how many of those people might be capable of such an act.

[mdk]

It almost makes me wonder how many of those people might be capable of such an act.

All of them. Everybody. People are not a nice creation, once our illusions of order are taken away. The only people 'Incapable' of a mass killing are the ones with poor aim.

But look at the bright side. We've gotten really really goddamn good at suppressing our violent tendencies. We've come a long way since Eye for an Eye. Heck, even people in the army are more likely to die in a motorcycle accident than they are to get shot. We've got an impressive society, and these breaches only emphasize that fact. Human nature is ugly and we have made ourselves awesome.

EDIT: This may seem in poor taste. Let me know if I've been a little too blaise, I'll..... ech. My instinct now is to take it down but I think I'll leave it here until/unless someone asks, and then I've got no qualms deleting this post.

[Brovo]

mdk said All of them.

WHY YOU LITTLE--

mdk said Everybody. People are not a nice creation, once our illusions of order are taken away. The only people 'Incapable' of a mass killing are the ones with poor aim. But look at the bright side. We've gotten at suppressing our violent tendencies. We've come a long way since Eye for an Eye. Heck, even people in the army are more likely to die in a motorcycle accident than they are to get shot. We've got an impressive society, and these breaches only emphasize that fact. Human nature is ugly and we have made ourselves awesome.EDIT: This may seem in poor taste. Let me know if I've been a little too blaise, I'll..... ech. My instinct now is to take it down but I think I'll leave it here until/unless someone asks, and then I've got no qualms deleting this post.

--Oh nevermind. Actually no I completely agree with you.

As for the Isle Shooter, he was massively unstable, and no amount of help was going to stop him once he went beyond the threshold of seeing other people as beneath him. (Especially scapegoating his own personal feelings of inferiority onto a group of people who had utterly nothing to do with him.) There is no saving someone who willingly drinks in their own image from the pool of narcissism in the desert of insanity. All you can do is wait for the inevitable breakdown and do what you can then.

Unfortunately, this guy had a breakdown and got his hands on some weapons instead of psychiatric help.

[HeySeuss]

mdk said
All of them.

What you're trying to say is, "Psychos happen." I tend to agree. I also agree with the Jungian 'thing' about the dark side of human nature. ;)

It'd be nice to prevent these once and for all, but people are not merely good at killing and have violent impulses, but they are also very adaptable and creative. On another note, the family warned the police, and this kid had mental issues and handguns. I'm sure more will come out on how he acquired them, and that's something to pay attention to. I won't jump the gun by speculating on whether or not they were a legal acquisition.

The ball was dropped, but I also tend to think that in a lot of cases where the ball is dropped, there's a cry for heads to roll before the guys in charge can fix the mistakes of their underlings. Sometimes the buck stops there a little too fast, and otherwise capable people aren't given the time they need to fix a problem.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

"Have a small penis? Forget the pills, go out and shoot someone!"

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ok, I watched some of his final vid and god damn that guys is messed up!

Before I continue though, to address the OP a bit. Just because someone is rich doesn't mean they're life is good and happy. There can still be a lot of issues with one lives that causes them to become depressed, snap etc. I mean, ask most people you know who have depressed, are suicidal etc. Unless if they are in that state strictly due to poverty issues I'm pretty sure they would not say they'd suddenly feel better if they became rich.

Back to the topic on hand, he blames his issues on things entirely irrelevant to those he blames, and give's himself a false image of superiority.
I mean hell, even then arguments he makes for what makes his life sad is laughable.

22 and still a virgin - I know people older that are still virgins, I'm 20 and still a virgin. But I don't see me or them blaming women for it and saying we should get revenge. Hell if anything my experiences in relationships taught me it's better to just live to enjoy your life rather than worry about having a girlfriend or being in a relationship.If this guy honestly got a girl friend he'd probably snap even sooner cause something would not happen the way he wanted and he'd only have heart break and relationship issues to add to his reasoning/motivations.

I think this guy is a clear example of the saying "You should not be in a relationship until you do not need one to be happy".

[ApocalypticaGM]

I keep up with Laci Green because it's refreshingly surprising to find someone who shares a very, very similar perspective. To boot, as a male-bodied person, my perspective is going to be drastically different as Isla Visa and the related assaults clearly target women. I'm not saying I can't speak to this as an issue, but I'd clearly speaking as someone less apt to be a victim, so I don't really think that's a valuable addition. All I can say is that those who are also men need to recognize the pressures we place on our sons to 'act like a man' and achieve that misogynistic and emotionally repressive 'ideal'. We've been told to fit in a certain box, to have certain opinions, and to express ourselves in certain ways or we apparently haven't earned our identity. Worse, so much of this is built upon demeaning and restricting women. It's our responsibility to check ourselves and hold our buddies accountable, because being passive to this sort of shit is as bad as committing it to begin with.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'd prefer TheAmazingAtheists take on the situation.



He actually bothered to dig into the reports, the stats and his personal history/journal rather than simply look at the basics of "Wanted sex, killed for not getting it" and then turning that into a feminist movement. First he shared mutual hatred for both the women he didn't sleep with and the men who did get sex, he hated both men and women and wanted anyone who either refused what he wanted or had what we wanted to suffer. That's not sexism or misogyny, that's jealousy and envy. Even looking at the statistics of the shooting, 4 men died and 2 women. If twice the number of men die than women it's not exactly a case you can claim was sexist or against women. Hell, using stats like that is bad practice in general because it can highly be based on location. Such as what if he did it at his old boys only school? Then it would of been basically just men who died, but that would give us no grounds to say sexism against men. He could of done it at a store whose products tend to attract more than one sex than the other.

To determine if it was sexist we'd have to look at outside factors such as motivations, reasoning etc and info like that we do have all points towards jealousy and entitlement.

[HeySeuss]

A Washington Post film critic blamed Judd Apatow and Seth Rogen movies for perpetuating the idea that college is all sex and so on and so forth.

I was like, "I know a troll when I see one."

I'm reminded of that scene from Full Metal Jacket, "You've got a peace sign on your uniform and 'born to kill' written on your helmet! What is that, some kind of sick joke?" - POG officer in the movie.

It's the Jungian thing, sir. :)

[Turtlicious]

He was angry at women, because they didn't fit the MRA stereotype that he was led to believe.

He was angry at men, because they seemed to excel at what he couldn't.

The common factor is that a group of men set up this bullshit paradigm in his head. Dude is mentally ill, and should have gotten help. Instead he found a group of other mentally ill people who filled his head with crap.

[ApocalypticaGM]

Magnum, I'll respond more deeply tomorrow, but for now I'd point out that sexism is not defined by who is more overtly targeted. Men suffer from misogynist views too. The idea that his denial of women, and their existence for his pleasure punishable if not received is a kind of misogyny without question.

And to note, feminist where? Specifically in this video, which responds to his and his actions, are details about an issue commonly recognised. You call it feminist like that makes it less valid. It's not. We don't teach our boys what it means to be a person wholly, just what defines them as a man in our narrow understanding of such. So no, it's not an issue strictly for women. But it's an issue where women are treated like shit, where boys are led to think like shit, and where the product is all too often... I think you know where that's going.

[Gwazi Magnum]

He expected to get everything that he wanted, it just so happened the thing he wanted most was sex with a woman. This as a lone individual with entitlement issues, if it was misogynist there would far more men like him acting like getting sex from a woman was a birth right and willing to kill all women and men who have sex if they don't get it.

And yes this is an issue that effects everyone, and teaching our men to act in a specific way is harmful to those men and society at large. It is a universal problem, so Laci's claim that this is basically an attack/issue against woman are unfounded from a motivation/reasoning standpoint and from a standpoint on how people at large are effected. If it was a feminist issue it would have to be something attacking women specifically, which it isn't.

[Brovo]

Can we please not blame sexism for a mass murder committed by someone who was extremely disturbed? This should be a grade A case for expanding knowledge on mental disorders not scapegoating that he did all this because he hated vaginas. Good god, come on guys.

[Gwazi Magnum]

That's what I was trying to saw when the Laci Green's video equating this to sexism was posted.

But I seemed to be executed my wording very poorly this time (More than usual, my wording has never been the best :/).
The whole hating vagina's were meant to be more direct quotes of him, where he's outright said both in his video and his journal that women do not deserve sex or enjoyment cause they wouldn't give him anymore. Even when not claiming sexism and treating it as the mental illness it is, that part is still relevant cause it played a big role in his thinking, his reasoning, his views etc.

Put simply I agree, this is not a case of sexism, discrimination against women or anything. It is a case of a man who is very clearly mentally insane and an example of how the mind can snap and how the human mind can become so disturbed and deranged.

[HeySeuss]

Turtlicious said
He was angry at women, because they didn't fit the MRA stereotype that he was led to believe.He was angry at men, because they seemed to excel at what he couldn't.The common factor is that a group of men set up this bullshit paradigm in his head. Dude is mentally ill, and should have gotten help. Instead he found a group of other mentally ill people who filled his head with crap.

You feed a stupid ideology to some people and they'll latch on, obsess and act out. Most MRA's stop at the point of talk because the venting is cathartic for them -- it's like the way some people talk about overthrowing government...and others send anthrax filled envelopes. Some people talk about retribution on abortion clinic doctors...and some actually blow some doctor's brains out in church.

This is why I think, in a moral sense, that people have a responsibility to tone it down, but in America the right to free speech allows people to ignore that freely. (I like free speech, but I feel like it can co-exist, in most instances, with someone thinking before they speak) And yes, I look down on people that use that extreme rhetoric as their release mechanism, because they need to find a different way to get it off their chest, like lifting weights or yoga or whatever it takes so they're not encouraging shooters. We know that they feed off that shit, don't do the whole self-restraint thing and are often carrying out the extreme act because they want to impress someone, like their favorite author or a bunch of dudes in their extremist internet community.

Showing some restraint in what one says isn't popular and some people are bound to snap and growl about the 1st amendment when it's mentioned, but I am proposing voluntary self-edit.

[Turtlicious]

Ok at least one person understands what I'm saying, my job here is done.

Uguu~

[ApocalypticaGM]

Brovo said
Can we please not blame sexism for a mass murder committed by someone who was extremely disturbed? This should be a grade A case for expanding knowledge on mental disorders not scapegoating that he did all this because he hated vaginas. Good god, come on guys.

So... why can't it be both, exactly? And I know you're being playful with the hating vaginas bit, but I don't think oversimplifying sexism really helps prove your argument here. Can madness not come from both within and outside the mind? This particular young man had issues, of course, that doesn't mean problematic behaviour doesn't have anything to do with it. Look at the comments on his videos and the way he's been treated, perhaps early on, by the news. Many have approached him as sick boy whose suffering was something 'we could sympathize' with. The fact is that although this single individual may have had an illness, that alone was not why he took this course. The way he saw the world and described it, which he was obviously openly sharing, is thought as mad. The idea that women owe sex, that women are objects, and the many double standards we hold between men and women cannot be argued to not be very present today in both our population and our government. We blatantly tie Manhood with Sex, making it a source of pride, like some illusive treasure which we who hold our genitals outside ourselves must attain. We tell our boys to man up, to suppress their emotions, and that violence is just another to communicate. That if a man is brutally assaulted he probably wanted it, or he's lucky, or that he's gay and just regrets it. Can you honestly say these aren't the messages you've received from the media and our society? It's pretty big in the US, at least. Hell, the fact that you can walk into a room and realistically expect most of the women to have been assaulted or molested before should be a clear indicator that we have a big problem.

So yeah, let's definitely consider that while mental illness is a serious issue America apparently can't take seriously, there's another issue here at play that, while it's often brought up, is never given the time of day. These are both issues that are represented because of the deep stigmas and misguided associations that label all women fragile objects and all mentally ill dangerous crackpots. As important as it is to underscore the need for our attention and care for the mental illness in this country, it's equally important to remember that mental illness alone was clearly not to the cause of this. The mind may be sick, but the sick ideas delivered to it were no help.

Magic Magnum said
That's what I was trying to saw when the Laci Green's video equating this to sexism was posted.But I seemed to be executed my wording very poorly this time (More than usual, my wording has never been the best :/). The whole hating vagina's were meant to be more direct quotes of him, where he's outright said both in his video and his journal that women do not deserve sex or enjoyment cause they wouldn't give him anymore. Even when not claiming sexism and treating it as the mental illness it is, that part is still relevant cause it played a big role in his thinking, his reasoning, his views etc.Put simply I agree, this is not a case of sexism, discrimination against women or anything. It is a case of a man who is very clearly mentally insane and an example of how the mind can snap and how the human mind can become so disturbed and deranged.

Sexism isn't just about women. That's the problem here. Sexism is about the expectations and crazy amounts of pressure place on our people to fit certain gender roles. The same expectations that tell a boy he must have sex to prove his manhood, that speaking a certain way makes him effeminate and therefore weak. The same pressures that tell parents if the boys play with dolls they'll turn gay and that little girls wouldn't have any interest in knights or nerf guns. These expectations, which we create and choose perpetuate, limits what is acceptable in a person. So if the boy doesn't have sex there's something wrong with him. So if the girl wants to go paintballing she's just some dyke. These expectations cause so many to hurt themselves and to commit suicide. These expectations turn instances of verbal abuse into 'boys will be boys' and makes rape against a man some guy's lucky day. The traumas faced aren't validated and the pain hangs deep. We don't acknowledge it, we won't help. So yeah, when someone already delicate of mind, someone who already thinks a bit differently, when this person meets these extreme expectations and pressures -- no shit they're going to break. Sexism is as much a problem for men as it is for women. We all suffer. Worse, paired in this case as it is with mental illness, we see two serious issues that are largely ignored in America. If a person straps a bomb to their chest and ignites it, we focus very hard on what is best politically. A bomber there was a Muslim Extremist, a bomber here is just mentally ill, despite the say religious fervour. Personally, I say screw the political interpretations. I say let's acknowledge the fact there are two BIG problems at play, and it doesn't mean two-shits if someone believes one trumps the other, they're both clearly issues here. These are messages being spouted off by both the ill and the 'sane'. Do we really need this argument on if something is an act of sexism or mental illness as if the two are mutually exclusive. Gods Forbid we see both as problems and try to change them.

[Gwazi Magnum]

ShonHarris said Sexism isn't just about women. That's the problem here. Sexism is about the expectations and crazy amounts of pressure place on our people to fit certain gender roles. The same expectations that tell a boy he must have sex to prove his manhood, that speaking a certain way makes him effeminate and therefore weak. The same pressures that tell parents if the boys play with dolls they'll turn gay and that little girls wouldn't have any interest in knights or nerf guns. These expectations, which we create and choose perpetuate, limits what is acceptable in a person. So if the boy doesn't have sex there's something wrong with him. So if the girl wants to go paintballing she's just some dyke. These expectations cause so many to hurt themselves and to commit suicide. These expectations turn instances of verbal abuse into 'boys will be boys' and makes rape against a man some guy's lucky day. The traumas faced aren't validated and the pain hangs deep. We don't acknowledge it, we won't help. So yeah, when someone already delicate of mind, someone who already thinks a bit differently, when this person meets these extreme expectations and pressures -- no shit they're going to break. Sexism is as much a problem for men as it is for women. We all suffer. Worse, paired in this case as it is with mental illness, we see two serious issues that are largely ignored in America. If a person straps a bomb to their chest and ignites it, we focus very hard on what is best politically. A bomber there was a Muslim Extremist, a bomber here is just mentally ill, despite the say religious fervour. Personally, I say screw the political interpretations. I say let's acknowledge the fact there are two BIG problems at play, and it doesn't mean two-shits if someone believes one trumps the other, they're both clearly issues here. These are messages being spouted off by both the ill and the 'sane'. Do we really need this argument on if something is an act of sexism or mental illness as if the two are mutually exclusive. Gods Forbid we see both as problems and try to change them.

Note how in my post that you replied to I noted both sexism and discrimination against women separately. I didn't lump them as the same thing, I am well aware that sexism effect's both men and women. My position on that is fairly clear on just about any thread here that isn't about Religion.

As for multiple issues, to blame sexism here is to look at the base act. Not the actual mentality/trigger behind it. He was motivated by greed, jealousy and envy. He wanted sex and being a heterosexual male a woman represented sex to him. That's not sexism, that just happened to be the sex he was attracted to. So it was women he demanded to have sex with, and men who had sex that he despised.

[Brovo]

Why can't it both? Logic: Cause and effect.

His extreme sexism came after his warped mind became evident.

There are lots of sexist people (both against men and women) who don't become genocidal murderers as a result. Not that this justifies sexism, but as someone who has a mental disorder, I would appreciate this chance to learn more about something that people are painfully unaware of the extent of, to, you know, learn about mental disorders, and what they can do to people when they aren't properly helped through it. Not have it get hijacked by another "because sexism" piece of drivel.

Sexism is bad, but it didn't cause this mentally unstable person to kill. Being mentally unstable did. Stop detracting from the real problem in this case with a different one that was a symptom, not a cause.

[ActRaiserTheReturned]

He was evil.
The end.