[OOC] The Games we Play Around the Throne

[Genkai]

Main pair: Joffrey & Arya
Others: TBD

So this is an OOC to perhaps better organize our thoughts and what we want to happen, in what order, etc.

So let's establish what we know we want and what we have yet to decide, considering this is so "AU" we do need to make sure we're on the same page before we jump into the calamity and hilarity that is this interesting pair of people.

We're starting possibly, when Arya and Joffrey "fight" on the river, we could use it as a starting point, give them more dialogue, and then skip a little bit?

We want Sansa to be taken out of the city at some point.

We want Joffrey to have some balls and stand on his own without his mother's help. He wants to prove himself which may push him far, thanks to the recent rumors of incest and such.

We want Joffrey to better himself when it comes to swordplay and we want Arya to be able to keep him on his toes.

We also want Ned to possibly live, either owing his life to Joffrey or something like that.

So! What else are we thinking about?

[Gowi]

Well first of all, with my Joffrey being less of an arbitrary manchild it would likely affect a lot of the events in the events even before the “fight” on the river. Such as the assassin attacking Bran in his sleep would not happen, Joffrey’s bitterness at Tyrion would not be as apparent as the Imp seems to be the only male mentor in his life who gives him any attention as Robert finds Joffrey a “little monster” and is more content with whoring and hunting to an early grave.

If we start at the river I imagine we are going to have a lot of sequence time movements to minimize filler?

The declaration of incest is going to make Joffrey angry as all hell at everyone when that hits his ears which will further alienate him from his own mother.

Again Joffrey’s from the start more interested in impressing Robert so his interest in swordplay is a way emulating the strength/skill of his father even though he still gets ignored which drives him to be tougher. So at the river he’s probably a bit tougher? I don’t know, maybe his intentions were to give a lesson in a sort of aggressive way—hell maybe he doesn’t even get bitten with how we end up writing the scene?

Ned:

And yes, Ned, probably will live since he basically told Joffrey the truth of his birth which while distressing was a sort of reality he has to face. I’m thinking he would send Ned to the dungeons for an undecided amount of time as leverage? I don’t know. There’s a lot of options here that could be in-depth discussions or decisions: The Night’s Watch, Essos, etc.

Sansa:

The political marriage might’ve been something Joffrey saw as more his father acknowledging him but he perhaps grows worried that Sansa’s romanaticization of the royal marriage is a sign that she’s a political creature which reminds him of his mother which makes him feel uncomfortable. Sansa is said to look very fair and like her mother in her youth—which is also initially alluring to Joffrey.

[Genkai]

Joffrey & Arya:

That is a very good and interesting point. I didn't think your portrayal of Joffery would change the events with Bran but that is a good thought. If he and Tyrion are on better terms, it would change how Tyrion is hunted in the first season, so at any rate, a war might not break out in the future, or if one does, it's for another reason.

If we wanted the rumors to hit before the river (say en route to King's Landing still) there could just be people talking about rumors. And if Joffrey, Sansa and possibly Arya overhear, it would change the dynamic between them and how Joffrey is struggling to keep himself calm while faced with a horrible truth. If we want Robert to be less drunk (only slightly so) and more of a decent father figure, we could always say he asked Syrio first, to train Joffrey. So when Syrio trains Arya, they could have that connection.

I assume if the direwolf still shows up, Joffrey wouldn't be able to get the better of it, especially with Sansa yelling at him to not hurt her pet. Arya would take plenty of pleasure of knocking Joffrey down and taunting him, even more so if we wanted them to hear rumors a few scenes before? Or that could just add too much fuel to the fire, and we could wait on that.

Ned:

Ned did offer to take Joffrey under his wing, I could see Joffrey reacting to lock him up but at the same time, he must be smart enough to see Ned as a useful tool, rather than a figure which needs to be put in his place.

Sansa:

Sansa bearing too much like Cersei, should be a red flag to Joffrey.

If it wasn't his choice to wed Sansa and if he's weary of her entertainment value (he sees how strained Cersei and Robert are surely) he could want to call it off. Not just too piss off his mother but for his own sake. If he wants to make his father proud, he would marry her but when Robert dies, it would give Joffrey the push to make up his own mind.

Petyr & Cersei:

With Joffrey pulling away, I could see Petyr wanting to take advantage of this weakness, while his intentions are purely selfish, he may still be of use in the city, and he could always try to steer Joffrey in the (wrong) direction he likes, though if that were ever the case, I'm sure something would happen to make things difficult because seeing the genius squirm can be such fun.

Tyrion & Cat:

If we don't have Bran become a cripple, Cat doesn't need to go to King's Landing, therefore she could defend Winterfell when Theon came to take over. We could keep Tyrion in King's Landing or we could put him somewhere else.

[Gowi]

Bran, Arya, The Butcher’s Boy:

At the end of the day, Bran still got pushed out of the tower and becomes a cripple, yeah? It’s just the assassin that many speculate was Joffrey due to some of the things he stated to Tyrion but I can’t remember so we might shelf that and have events go as they did with that.

Let’s assume starting from after the river (or during) is our best course of canon drop-off. I mean Arya still tells her wolf to leave (remember Sansa’s wolf was only killed after the fact that Arya’s wolf disappeared and ‘a wolf had to die’) after it attacks Joffrey, right? Also, where does this leave Arya’s friend who gets executed because he happened to be responsible because of ‘reasons’?

Not sure about Syrio training Joffrey at an earlier or current point in time, but that's a neat idea.

Ned:

It depends how the conversation goes with Joffrey visiting the dungeons, something he did not do originally. Having a heart-to-heart with Ned despite the Lord Stark pretty much damning them to live through Stannis’ nonsense later on is something that brings an issue.

Sansa:

I imagine he comes to a decisions after a lot of aggravated quiet contemplation. Also next to her sister, Sansa, must seem pretty unspectacular by comparison as there are few “noblewomen” who have interest in martial pursuits.

Petyr & Cersei:

Petyr would definitely try to play his game, but I’m sure he would be surprised by Joffrey forgiving/not-executing Lord Stark. As for Cersei I could enjoy how this ends up being written.

Tyrion & Cat:

I’d like Tyrion to still become Hand of the King and all of that in Tywin’s absence and inspire Joffrey at the Battle of Blackwater when we reach that point; and since Joffrey might latch onto Tyrion’s wisdom (which would PISS the LIVING SHIT out of Cersei) it turns into a character arc from there.

Also, Robb still marches on the south due to his father being imprisoned right? The whole Clash of Kings plot arc might be something to think about.

[Genkai]

Bran, Butcher's Boy, Arya, Joffrey:

Oh right right, god season one feels like decades ago.

I don't know if we knew what to make of the assassin. I thought Petyr hired it, gave him a sword which he stole from Tyrion?

Well Arya's direwolf will run off, she'll probably be reunited later. In terms of Sansa's, it doesn't have to die so soon, since Joffrey won't tell his mother about the incident until I assume Sansa blabs about it to Ned and Cersei. Arya is smart enough not to say anything or could say something to insult Joffrey later on, in regards to the bite.

I love Syrio, I refuse to believe he's dead. but if Joffrey is more useful with a sword, who else but Syrio to teach him? Robert would be useless, as would Tyrion. Jamie is an offer but I assume he'd be busy most of the time?

Ned:

Ned does need to be more careful when talking to Joffrey and I think it was the lack of respect and credibility that Ned saw in Joffrey, that really sealed his fate. If Ned plays his cards right, he could have Ned bending to his will, to an extent if it means his family is safe.

Sansa:

Sansa isn't much of a conversationalist. While Arya has a tongue on her, it must be better than someone who is bland.

I doubt Joffrey would miss her much if she was taken away from the city.

As far as her use, she could probably be taken to the Wall where Jon is.

Petyr:

Seeing Ned spared would surely throw a wrench into Petyr's plans. After all, he's been working hard to get Ned into trouble. If Ned lives, he's game has to change or he has to try to keep the upper hand. If he manages to get to Cat before Petyr does, Petyr could be more of a present enemy sooner, rather than later.

Tywin, Tyrion & Jamie:

I'd like to note I am not a fan of Shae or that one girl Robb marries, so if excluded them or off'ed them, I'd be fine.

As far as the Battle of Blackwater goes, it would be useful to have Joffrey not shitting his pants and fighting by Tyrion's side. It would ruffle Tywin's feathers no doubt. He can't control his godson and Cersei has lost her touch by then, surely. It would bond Tyrion and Joffrey even more and yes, piss Cersei off and probably put her on suicide watch.

If Robb still marches onward to get his father free, I am sure Jamie and Tywin would make themselves scarce to deal with that headache. And then there'd be the issue of unrest in the city I'm sure. The people don't want a war to start for petty reasons, they could easily turn on the castle and demand more food, coin, etc.

[Gowi]

Clash of Kings:

So was it his father’s imprisonment or his father’s execution that made him go “Fuck this, King of the North, War Time!” at any rate? My memory is quite foggy on this matter. Either way I think as Ned sits in the dungeons for weeks on end while Joffrey speculates his fate tension could still lead to King Robb and his war, right? Assuming we make Petyr the one who framed Tyrion for the assassination then a lot of events would go as expected.

Direwolf Trial:

I think for the most part it makes sense that Sansa blabbed and her lies would still go pretty much to note. But we can assume the Hound was already hunting the Butcher’s Boy so even if Joffrey speaks up himself things are already done and I think Cersei would convince her husband that “Dire Wolves are Dangerous, the Beast has to be punished” so Lady might still perish due to that. Joffrey doesn’t have much control here even if he speaks up.

[Genkai]

War & Petyr:

It would be Petyr's plan to have Ned speak up about the incest (though we're handling it a bit better, so...) while framing Tyrion for the assassination attempt. He knew Cat would pursue him and Robb would want to keep his mother and father safe and ensure the Stark name isn't tainted. If Ned is captured and locked away (awaiting trial or something) Robb may want to approach things differently and not say "fuck this, I'm declaring war!" but we could instead have someone like Stannis making his move? I did think Robb's actions were rather rash, if there was a chance to save Ned, I'd think it'd be wiser for Cat to maybe go and speak on his behalf? Or Petyr, who would throw him to the wolves?

Any of that make sense? :/

Sansa and the pets:

I assume the Hound would still go after the Butcher's Boy and kill him, don't we can change that.

If Sansa admits what happened, I'm sure she'd assume her direwolf would be spared, since she doesn't think things through too often.

If anything, it does also seem likely that Arya could say something about it herself, to get Joffrey in trouble but also Sansa, who is just being a brat having since arrived in King's Landing. But I am weary to do that since it would probably push Joffrey away, more so if she could make a deal to keep quiet about besting him and him getting bitten. That sounds like something Arya might do and while it may annoy Joffrey, it could at least earn Arya some sort of points for having guts, unlike Sansa?

[Gowi]

Clash of Kings:

I do think Eddard was honestly upset that the incest happened as if you remember it is considered a critical sin through the religion Eddard follows (the Old Gods apparently are really against bastardy, incest, and kinslaying). So mixed with Eddard’s extreme sense of honor I think that was the reason he acted on the news of the incest so brutally. Did Petyr and Varys lead Eddard to discovering this? More or less, yeah, but his reaction was his own and not forged by the manipulation right?

I think that was the point of Robb though, he was rash and didn’t think things through (such as screwing over the Freys). Perhaps a smarter Robb would be prevalent in the AU, but I like the rash idiocy of Robb that cost him both Winterfell and his life in the long term.

I think people trying to head to King’s Landing when news that Eddard’s trial being delayed becomes apparent (and him not executed). Maybe Cat would try to go off to King’s Landing, and then it becomes a battle for who can convince Joffrey to do what with Ned (which Cersei and Tywin would want sent to the wall or exiled iirc).

The Trial:

Remember that Arya implored Sansa to tell the truth, which she doesn’t. But I’m struggling with Joffrey admitting something or keeping quiet to save his pride. If the former, I imagine it would be something along the line of: “We were sparring, it got out of hand.” obviously stretching the truth. Though I imagine it wouldn't cange much since Cersei would just be like "Direwolves are dangerous" or "Something needs to be punished".

[Genkai]

The River:

I see it going generally: Arya and BB are sparring, Sansa and Joffrey happen upon them. Joffrey steps in (for whatever reason) and Arya protests and says they should fight instead. He advances on her, direwolf bites him and Arya gets the upper hand. Joffrey calls for The Hound to get the runaway. He then tells Sansa and Arya to not tell his mother about the incident. Sansa wants to appease him and won't. Arya may need convincing.

I don't see Joffrey confessing outright to the event unless Sansa or Arya said something to Cersei/Ned/Robert/whoever first.

So either Cersei weasels it out of Sansa when she suspects Joffrey is hurt.

Or Arya, out of spite, confesses.

I'm leaning more toward Sansa letting it slip out. He could then downplay it as much as possible but Cersei would want payment and demand the direwolf (whichever is closer, probably Sansa's?) to die. This could get a rift forming between Joffrey and Cersei, and Joffrey and Sansa. It could also prove to Joffrey that while Arya may be troublesome, she is one to keep her word, like Ned.

Clash of Kings:

Eddard reacted right away though, he did very little plotting and played right into Petyr's hand.

If we gave him time to approach Joffrey rather than make a public display which was what got him into trouble the most, we could use Ned a little better, while still being able lock him away while matters are discussed. Since Tyrion would be around King's Landing (since he's not captured) he could talk sense into Joffrey and help him cope, if he believed the truth/rumors.

If Cat traveled down to talk to Joffrey (and see her girls) it could provoke Petyr put into action the idea of smuggling Joffery and some others out of the city. He could "help" Cat by first getting Sansa out which would of course give him personal leverage with Cat, while also setting in motion the fact that Joffrey may have to wed Sansa, pre-revolts and pre-Blackwater I assume?

EDIT - it could be fun to see Cat and Cersei square off, though I am sure Cat would watch herself, but if she sees Joffrey acting on his own, she would change tactics and try him.

[Gowi]

The River:

Yeah, Cersei certainly doesn’t get an answer from Joffrey who probably would be just all: “It’s nothing, leave it be mother.” Or something of that nature. But generally the trial doesn’t seem too different at the end of the day it plays out much like canon.

Though I do believe that The Hound would’ve been sent by Robert/Cersei, rather than Joffrey. But that’s semantics at this point we’ve gotten a lot of this figured out.

Clash of Kings:

Yep, Eddard was certainly way too trusting and was easily manipulated.

I mean Tyrion might still be captured since the whole nonsense with the assassin still seems to happen to our agreeance, yeah? I don’t mind Ned’s little public display of the will and it will certainly depress and anger Joffrey a lot.

Depends how Petyr schemes it, I’d imagine. I mean I’m not sure Joffrey would be present at Blackwater if he gets smuggled out?

[Genkai]

The River:

It doesn't seem to be too far off canon but how we handle it will be, no worries there I think.

So we're fine with starting as described, and then how far ought we skip, you think?

Clash of Kings:

Yeah, true. Tyrion and Cat will be busy half the time with travel and misunderstanding. Cat would still want to head to King's Landing to tell Ned about the attack, though we could have her not have bothered with going to her sister. We could just have her take Tyrion to King's Landing and have him sorted there? It would change things, she would be around to help her husband but then she could let Tyrion go in a sort of exchange. Yes, Joffrey would want his uncle freed but if we let Cat try to reason before acting out, we could have the exchange done in secret while Robb (not knowing about a secret truce of sorts?) could still start a war, since everyone (save for Joffrey and Cat) know that Ned is safe?

I know she loves her children but they would be safer with Ned alive, rather than Ned dying. And if we have Ned talk to Joffrey in private, rather in public, he could get more leeway.

Then Petyr could be under the impression that he can still "save the day" while also keeping his pawns in check?

We could have Joffrey and co. smuggled out during Blackwater? You said you wanted him to be with Tyrion, we could do that, Petyr could use the chaos to sneak him and Arya? Not sure if Cersei is invited or not. And then there's The Hound as well.

[Gowi]

Starting before the river “trial” or during it would seem the best jump-off, and we can clearly work with either. For me I think sequential flashbacks would benefit as characters move on the kingsroad. I can go across my version of Joffrey’s thoughts during all of this and watnot.

I don’t think it would be in Cat’s best interests to keep Tyrion in a city full of Lannister supporters when it was KNOWN that she supposedly had Tyrion. By the time of Ned’s “trial/execution” Catelyn was still in the Vale and Tyrion was heading home when he got accosted by the one not-wildlings tribe in the Vale. There’s a lot of distance to travel that we have to account for.

Also are we going by television ages or novel ages?

Petyr has a silver tongue, and Joffrey is still very easily manipulated. So there’s a lot he could do pre-Blackwater. We don’t need Joffrey to be “smuggled out” if he is already obviously fighting in that battle or something. How you plan stuff with Petyr and Sansa is up to you as I have no clue how Sansa is going to be “unbetrothed” or anything like that to Joffrey.

Then there is the matter of Arya/Syrio being approached by the Lannister bannermen when Eddard Stark is imprisoned? Perhaps we can switch that up and perhaps Joffrey goes himself? Hence she wouldn’t be on the run and all of that?

[Genkai]

I can probably start us when it happens. I can take the role of Sansa if needed. I assume some roles will be shared, depending on what's going on since waiting for some words to be exchanged in the next post seems a bit annoying so backtracking or sharing would be needed. But generally with most "adv" posts this isn't too big of an issue.

If we don't bring Cat down from the Vale to K.L, that's fine by me, Ned still needs to keep his head on one way or another I think.

I would say tv ages for the sake of ease. I know they're younger in the books but if we wanted to, we could just state their ages now so we're both on the same page.

If you're fine with me play Petyr and Sansa, that's fine with me. I figure I'll have Petyr make his own plans to get Sansa out for Cat, as well as to throw things off in the city itself. While he'd want to stay and keep tabs on people, he has his own spies to do that for him. So him taking Sansa out and following soon after, might not raise as many flags. Or he could stay and have Sansa being transported by someone else, Bron or some nameless idiot.

If we had Arya with Syrio at the apprehension of Ned, (assume Sansa is gone at that point and could be easily claimed a traitor for "running away" from her betrothed) it would make Joffrey act a little less like a shit. I assume Arya would be contained to her quarters until the mess is resolved? Or Arya, sensing her danger could find a way to sneak out, which we could have Joffrey go after her or we wait? If Arya stays put and Joffrey decides to show mercy, we could have Blackwater happen, or we could push it up a little bit. I don't know. Either way, Sansa vanishing and Ned trying to talk to Joffrey about him being unfit for the throne, Joffrey has a lot on his plate. Either Arya would try to get away or she could try and play along for the sake of staying alive and have them leave the city after Blackwater when the city is rioting. Or during, it depends when we want them to go as it will change the dynamic from a political one to just one of survival and figuring out who to trust.

[Gowi]

Definitely cool with sharing NPC roles for sure as its part of the nature of collaborative writing.

Back to ages, that’d place Joffrey around sixteen years after his name-day, and Arya/Sansa respectively at 11-12/13-14 or so. Fine by me, but that would also by lore make it absolutely pointless for Cersei to be regent when it comes time to Joffrey’s coronation (another difference ‘le gasp!) as Joffrey by Westerosi terms is a ‘man’ at 16 and not a ‘boy’ no longer. Gives him a lot more weight to him.

With Catelyn alive, Petyr might fancy trying to get Eddard killed in some way that doesn’t get back to him. But the thing is… is he still in love with Catelyn or Young Catelyn (who Sansa supposedly resembles perfectly). It’s going to take quite a bit of time movements to get to the point of Blackwater though if memory serves that’s exactly/about a year after [the execution]. I think keeping Sansa in King’s Landing post-Robert’s Death wouldn’t hurt much especially when she sees Joffrey’s aggravation or drifting eyes. Knowing Sansa she’d stupidly confide in Cersei for advice…

[Genkai]

I'd say Joffrey 16, Sansa 14 and Arya probably 12. Though I'd even suggest Sansa 14 and Arya 13 if possible but whatever. XD

Sansa wouldn't have much to do, which means she's vulnerable to whatever Petyr might want to do with or to her. It could be in that window, that he decides to put his plan into action. If he's under the assumption Ned is going to rot in the cell and die, he could turn his focus onto winning over Cat once and for all, and if it doesn't work, Sansa is a good plan B for him. We're still assuming Petyr and Varys nudged Ned to bring up the incest though it would take some balls to point the finger back at Petyr after everything is said and done.

[Gowi]

The truth is the truth. All sounds good. What else?

[Genkai]

I think for now we can get started and talk as things are set in motion, we have a general understanding/gist of things in terms of the beginning while we wet our feet. If we just stay on the same page and let things go with the flow, I think we'll be good. I can get a post up soon if you'd like. And I got bored when I got home from roaming the city and made a collage, cause hey she has long hair at the moment:

[Gowi]

Just about writing it I suppose. I'll play off whatever you give me an'stuff.

[Genkai]

It's not a big post but it's a start. If you need me to do something more with Sansa, I can add if needed, otherwise if you want to use Mycah and Sansa, feel free.

[Gowi]

Got a follow-up, watched the episode to remember some of the tone going on. A little different but maybe it's enough for us to play with.