Let's B!tch. I feel it's a healthy release for our roleplay annoyances 2.0

[skidcrow]

In my opinion, there are roleplays where a history section is called for; where it's thematically significant and will pertain more to the character and the story as a whole. However, in those that don't really need a history (which are often the majority), I prefer to have more of a lifestyle section, where you list a character's habits, profession, significant traits, etc. Just small details that bring the character to life more than writing a history that will be referenced maybe once IC. If anything, the history can be just that - references towards a character's past escapades within the IC posts, and sometimes historical reasons provided for anything out of the ordinary in one of the other CS fields. If need be, it can always be supplemented with the requirement for a Sample Post, as opposed to what I consider the Marmite of a CS (you either love it or you hate it).

[BrokenPromise]

@Odin I was more referring to bio length, but it could be argued that a good CS will show players failing to read the OOC in other areas. I don't think a bio section is a bad thing, but I don't think it's always essential. Grim's suggestion is one alternative.

[Dion]

In my opinion, there are roleplays where a history section is called for; where it's thematically significant and will pertain more to the character and the story as a whole. However, in those that don't really need a history (which are often the majority), I prefer to have more of a lifestyle section, where you list a character's habits, profession, significant traits, etc. Just small details that bring the character to life more than writing a history that will be referenced maybe once IC. If anything, the history can be just that - references towards a character's past escapades within the IC posts, and sometimes historical reasons provided for anything out of the ordinary in one of the other CS fields. If need be, it can always be supplemented with the requirement for a Sample Post, as opposed to what I consider the Marmite of a CS (you either love it or you hate it).

@Grim

There is no reason not to include a history - it's the personality that's highly unneeded. Whether or not you believe a history is irrelevant IC is one thing but it provides good hooks for other peoples' characters to hook into if invited to/if they are good roleplayers that know character interactivity drives a roleplay forwards. History motivates why a character acts a certain why if properly written (which I'll admit mostly isn't the case on RPG, but ideally it does) and substitutes a personality section entirely.

Failure to include some form of history is only acceptable if the character is literally fresh out of the womb. Otherwise your character will resemble something close to a walled off section in the RP - floating on its' own with no connectivity to the roleplaying world around him/her and you might be better off writing a book or making your own solo RP.

@BrokenPromise Fair enough, length can be irrelevant at most times. Essential is subjective I think - imho, history should always be essential to tie a character to the world. I find that saying 'history will be revealed IC' is a thing that poor writers usually do when they can't be arsed to write a history or something. Leaving it completely out is, as described above, also just poor connection to the world around you. Short or long, there should be some kind of idea of what this character has done and gone through to motivate thoughts, actions, etcetera. It forms your area of reference - seems to be a critical part of a good character sheet to me.

EDIT: inb4 'it's in my head and that's what counts' yeah but if it's in your head then you might as well write it down.

[SleepingSilence]

<Snipped quote by BrokenPromise>

I mean, I find a lot of correlation. Y'know, if your bio is riddled with spelling errors, poor prose, and a disregard for what I wrote in the OOC, then it's probably not much better in the IC.

A light bio doesn't mean it's not well written. I guess that's what it comes down to.

@Odin

But it be really hypocritical to point out people spelling errors, if you ever made one in your life. Character bios shouldn't have purple prose in it. You're writing something that clearly defines the character. They are not writing a story. If they make it difficult to understand what that character is, they have failed to write a character sheet...

[skidcrow]

<Snipped quote by Odin>

But it be really hypocritical to point out people spelling errors, if you ever made one in your life.

@SleepingSilence

Really?

Character bios shouldn't have purple prose in it. You're writing something that clearly defines the character. They are not writing a story. If they make it difficult to understand what that character is, they have failed to write a character sheet...

I wouldn't go that far. I always leave the history until last on my characters, and for some characters I've had their entire personality thought out but couldn't really think of anything good to put in the history. It's especially difficult when your character isn't the special snowflake protagonist whose parents died in an aistrike when they were five. I guess it all comes down to preferences.

[SleepingSilence]

@Grim If I can be very smug about my own writing for just a second. I personally love how that sentence can apply to anyone (including myself) and isn't a direct attack/comment. While perfectly encapsulating how useless a critique it is. Because not only is it crossed out, which means I agree it wasn't worth keeping. Playfully acknowledging its own ridiculousness. But it really does add to the humor because I can't be called out on it because I've been directly called the hypocrite by several people including people in charge. (which is fair is fair because most human beings are hypocrites) So my comments not only playful, less direct, it's also pointing out the fact that judging people, for simply mentioning people make mistakes (and maybe should improve upon them.) is somehow inherently wrong because you make mistakes is pretty ridiculous, if you're just going to do it yourself in the very next comment you make.

Sorry, I'm usually so critical of my own writing that sometimes you need to give yourself some praise. I basically agree that you can have personal preferences and maybe if there are particular things on a character sheet like your characters world or philosophy you can start getting into some prose. And even though I'm not big into sample posts I can see why they might be used. ( maybe the sample post can be just the first post you plan on using that just requires mod acceptance for example.)

[Dion]

<Snipped quote by Odin>

But it'd be really hypocritical to point out peoples spelling errors, if you ever made one in your life.

@SleepingSilence

You are correct.

Character bios shouldn't have purple prose in it. You're writing something that clearly defines the character. They are not writing a story. If they make it difficult to understand what that character is, they have failed to write a character sheet...

@SleepingSilence

If they make it difficult to understand what that character is, then their prose isn't good, and their IC posts would be unreadable regardless. I'd rather see their proficiency with their prose in the CS, when I can still ward them from my RP, than afterwards, when they're already slathering their prose that was (apparently) so unreadable that I couldn't understand their CS, into my IC.

Makes sense to me.

[skidcrow]

@Grim If I can be very smug about my own writing for just a second. I personally love how that sentence can apply to anyone (including myself) and isn't a direct attack/comment. While perfectly encapsulating how useless a critique it is. Because not only is it crossed out, which means I agree it wasn't worth keeping. Playfully acknowledging its own ridiculousness. But it really does add to the humor because I can't be called out on it because I've been directly called the hypocrite by several people including people in charge. (which is fair is fair because most human beings are hypocrites) So my comments not only playful, less direct, it's also pointing out the fact that judging people, for simply mentioning people make mistakes (and maybe should improve upon them.) is somehow inherently wrong because you make mistakes is pretty ridiculous, if you're just going to do it yourself in the very next comment you make.

@SleepingSilence

That has zero relevance in the current topic at hand. Instead of keeping it there, you probably should've just removed it if you considered it to be so ridiculous.

Sorry, I'm usually so critical of my own writing that sometimes you need to give yourself some praise.

I agree.

I basically agree that you can have personal preferences and maybe if there are particular things on a character sheet like your characters world or philosophy you can start getting into some prose. And even though I'm not big into sample posts I can see why they might be used. ( maybe the sample post can be just the first post you plan on using that just requires mod acceptance for example.)

Yeah. Even if there is a universal 'standard' as to what fields should be on a CS, the ones I've seen that go against said standard are pretty interesting and somewhat more enjoyable to write. At the end of the day, it is all just a matter of opinion, and I'm of the opinion that both history and personality are tedious and they can be much better represented in other forms. Sample posts are quite useful, maybe even more useful than some might think; it discourages flakers. If part of a roleplay's application requires somebody to write a post, there's less chance for people to submit a character and never post, because you've already weeded out the people who spend all their inspiration on a character and give up when it comes to actually posting.

[SleepingSilence]

@Odin *I wonder if I should bring up the fact that I spoke typed these on my phone while walking.* #blameautocorrect

So are you (or anyone, if they feel like responding) completely opposed to people who made a unsatisfactory character sheet from writing another one or getting a second chance? Because in order to do that you would likely have to point out what was wrong with it in the first place. Right?

[Dion]

@Odin *I wonder if I should bring up the fact that I spoke typed these on my phone while walking.* #blameautocorrect

So are you (or anyone, if they feel like responding) completely opposed to people who made a unsatisfactory character sheet from writing another one or getting a second chance? Because in order to do that you would likely have to point out what was wrong with it in the first place. Right?

@SleepingSilence

No, I generally let people make however many character sheets they like. I do point out what was wrong with it. But I find that generally if they can't make something satisfactory the first time, it has to be really unsatisfactory (as in, someone is trying to play _way_ above their skill level) for me to deny them to begin with. As long as something somewhat fits the lore and they make a few spelling errors but nothing major, I can let them slide. If it's literally a burden to read I'll generally deny them.

But I've noticed that these type of problems follow a specific trend.

These are players who generally match a lot of the following criteria;

• Playing above their skill level (which is fine, but the gap is too large for them to even be able to learn anything)
• Poor spelling
• Poor grammar
• Poor prose
• Overuse of cliches such as dead parents or 'he kiled the entir vilage himself xd'
• Their biography is two sentences to four sentences long
• They spend 3 hours selecting the coolest fighting moves and spend 2 minutes determining what depth the character has
• They blatantly ignore the established lore in the OOC or only understand it partially

At that point, you have to ask yourself - is this going to get better if I help them fix their spelling and grammar? No. No it's not. They're free to try again, but I already know it'll end the same way.

[SleepingSilence]

@Grim I mean if you agree with that comment being so, then I'm glad we're on the same page. But it was actually was relevant/related to something I wanted to/just asked and to the comment I was responding to.

Now on sample posts, what would you personally expect as an example post if you were a GM? Because there's two different answers to that question. 1. That you don't mind if someone posts and old post they have already made on the forum previously as long as it showcases their writing. 2. Acquiring everyone to write something new. (if not my suggestion where it's just your first post with a barrier of mod acceptance.)

[skidcrow]

Now on sample posts, what would you personally expect as an example post if you were a GM? Because there's two different answers to that question. 1. That you don't mind if someone posts and old post they have already made on the forum previously as long as it showcases their writing. 2. Acquiring everyone to write something new. (if not my suggestion where it's just your first post with a barrier of mod acceptance.)

@SleepingSilence

Personally? I'd have it so that people wrote something new, maybe even impose a paragraph limit if it were an Advanced RP. It's one thing to make a character sheet, but I need to ensure you play that character properly, instead of throwing all their pre-defined traits out of the window and pulling excuses for IC drama out of your ass. If anything, your sample post can act as a mini-prologue to the IC, wherein you can give your character something to do for their introductory post when the IC starts. At least, that's how I used mine when I joined Lord Wraith's Corrigan RP.

[SleepingSilence]

@Odin People that use the XD emoticon should be flogged.

There's nothing wrong with denying people mind, you're right that pointing out flaws won't automatically make one a better writer. Similar to the 'giving a man of fish versus teaching'. But they will inevitably ask "why?" When they do, I'd say would be fair to answer them. Though it would involve you pointing out what they spelled wrong, grammatical mistakes, cringey lines or stuff that doesn't follow the lore, or whatever rules you have put in place. Etc etc.

Let me go one step further, because I'm sure this happens to everyone. If you are part of a community of role-players, not a GM, but your with a chosen group and making/posting characters. You notice someone's character sheet is written just fine, but they have a misunderstanding with the lore, or just some things amiss, like a power that's not clearly defined. Do you think it's inappropriate to point it out to that person, so they can correct it? Do you just leave it to the GM even if you found it first? And presumably the GM is getting the first post written up, planning future plot details with the CO-GM's, whatever else. May even be something that was missed by the GM. (because they make mistakes too) and something like that a undefined power could potentially become a IC problem.

Doesn't it benefit more than yourself to @/PM that person and politely bring up the concern?

[Dion]

@SleepingSilence I tend to find it highly annoying when my players do my job as a GM so I tend not to point out flaws in other CS's because it's not my job and I imagine the GM would agree - otherwise he'd ask my opinion.

And partially I find it really rude to bring up issues with other CS's unprompted.

I would like to add from my previous interactions with you I also don't feel like you are capable of bringing a message like you are proposing (finding a flaw) diplomatically enough as a player to be able to avoid conflict. That is my opinion. If you, personally, were to ever point out a flaw in my CS, I wouldn't take it. Because I know how you word your messages. If what you are doing here is justifying actions you undertook before or after these posts, reconsider. I am telling you now - I don't think it'll work because people don't often follow the same rationale as you - if at all.

[SleepingSilence]

@Grim While the new and old both have con's. I'd say new would be the better choice. (A prologue sample post is actually kind of nifty.) Though would you consider making someone write that before typing out the character sheet or after the character sheet is already accepted? Or is it something that just needs to be done at the same time? (The alternatives I mentioned just sound more convenient to the poster to me.)

[skidcrow]

@Grim While the new and old both have con's. I'd say new would be the better choice. (A prologue sample post is actually kind of nifty.) Though would you consider making someone write that before typing out the character sheet or after the character sheet is already accepted? Or is it something that just needs to be done at the same time? (The alternatives I mentioned just sound more convenient to the poster to me.)

@SleepingSilence

Same time. The sample post is attached to the CS and is considered in the bigger picture when a decision is made as to whether the character is accepted. It's up to the player how they prioritise the writing order of the CS and the sample post, but they must both be sent at the same time.

[SleepingSilence]

@Odin So in the scenario that I brought up, you not being the GM, would you PM the GM to bring up the concern with someone else's character post? Or would you just assume the GM gave them the permission to break their own lore or have an undefined power. The customer is always right addage, if you will.

But you at least acknowledge that you can point out people's mistakes and flaws without being judged for it and feel justified for doing so. As long as you are the GM of the campaign or just someone who isn't me? Don't worry about it. I hate me too sometimes. That's even more common ground we share.

I guess it's nice to be honest and transparent with your biases? No really, it's a step. (If I can ever meet someone to give me a concrete reason for their contempt I'd shower them with confetti.)

So theoretically someone else could use the exact same words I use when describing possible advice and critique with writing that you've made. And you'd take it personally to innocuous depending who said it? I suppose I go by the broken clocks can be right twice a day, so if anyone had positive or negative critique to something I had written. I'd appreciate that they took the time to read it in the first place. Though I agree my thoughts can differ from the average individual. I suppose that clears up my query and also previous discussion. Bout all I can add. Was a nice chat. :3

[SleepingSilence]

@Grim I'm aware that's usually how it's done. Honestly if a GM made the rules that you'd have to make a sample post but was also clever enough to describe what it should be about, whether doing what you suggested or making a topic or broad theme which since everyone's reading your CS's anyway it would be fun to see what other people came up with. And I could see that being worth doing because it adds a little extra community interaction.

[NuttsnBolts]

Can we keep this thread for venting frustrations?

If you wish to discuss about character sheet, the setup of them or any other kind of stuff, create a new thread with a topic.

[Dion]

@SleepingSilence this isn't about me disliking you. If I did I wouldn't be here having the same conversation with you 3x now. It is getting boring. Instead of blaming my nonexistant dislike for you you should look to the inside. Of course me and others have told you that a few times now. But I will tell you again because I think if you can get past your victim complex you'd actually make a decent person.

I would, in the scenario described, most likely not PM a GM. It's not my job to control other players. I will raise a red flag if I interact with that persons character and it goes wrong. Otherwise, not my burden. The GM knows what they're doing.

There is no bias. I find the way you write really unpleasant. If you critique me I wouldn't take it. Your attempts at playful jokes or self-depriciation are ... annoying at best. I was saying for me personally, I wouldn't care what you think. That's how it is. I am transparent about that. But please don't accuse me of being biased - I wouldn't even know how I became biased because I have barely interacted with you and from what I have seen so far I think I prefer it stays that way.

I just gave you negative critique on what you'd written but instead of accepting my views (as my own - I am not neccesarily correct, but I am quite certain I am spot on in this case) you deflect and blame me for being biased where I am absolutely not. You are not speaking the truth when you say you'd accept someones critique.