[OOC] Myriad Reality

[Bishop]

I think it might be an angel or just good luck. I mean God has bigger things to worry about besides helping you to carry something heavy...
I mean, I don't get it how God and why would he find time to help you simple human while forsaking the others. Even if this human is a believer and prayer wouldn't he help those in real need first?

[Fractured]

I think it might be an angel or just good luck. I mean God has bigger things to worry about besides helping you to carry something heavy...
I mean, I don't get it how God and why would he find time to help you simple human while forsaking the others. Even if this human is a believer and prayer wouldn't he help those in real need first?

@Bishop

If you accept the reality of the God of the Bible, he exists as a personal God who created people because he loves us. And if you're all powerful and onnipresent, why not help people out? If he can do whatever he wants, it isn't outlandish to think that he just wants to be kind.

[Bishop]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see it He has already decided how everyone lives and dies. If something good happens to you or anyone, it has already been decided from the start of everything. I see it as a big plan and if something is to happen that He has put within the plan, then it will happen. He is all powerful after all so time is irrelevant to Him so he knows how everything goes and how everything will end up. Now, if he was really kind he wouldn't do small acts of "good luck" to give us a smile, no, he would do something major for everyone good of heart to help them in their life. But the fact that "luck" also smiles on evil people definitely shows that he views all humans the same, no matter if they are good or evil. SO you can't really say that he is "kind" in your definition of kindness.

I believe that the plan is already set and whatever is to be done or is in store for you , will be done. As I mentioned in an earlier post, praying to God is just foolish as you are asking Him to change His great plan. But praying and everything else was taken into consideration when he made His plan so I guess it matters somehow if He even decided to calculate how much you pray to Him in making His great plan.
But the truth is, from what we see, here on Earth he views and treats all humans the same, not giving special quirks or winks to anyone.

[Fractured]

Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I see it He has already decided how everyone lives and dies. If something good happens to you or anyone, it has already been decided from the start of everything. I see it as a big plan and if something is to happen that He has put within the plan, then it will happen. He is all powerful after all so time is irrelevant to Him so he knows how everything goes and how everything will end up. Now, if he was really kind he wouldn't do small acts of "good luck" to give us a smile, no, he would do something major for everyone good of heart to help them in their life. But the fact that "luck" also smiles on evil people definitely shows that he views all humans the same, no matter if they are good or evil. SO you can't really say that he is "kind" in your definition of kindness.

I believe that the plan is already set and whatever is to be done or is in store for you , will be done. As I mentioned in an earlier post, praying to God is just foolish as you are asking Him to change His great plan. But praying and everything else was taken into consideration when he made His plan so I guess it matters somehow if He even decided to calculate how much you pray to Him in making His great plan.
But the truth is, from what we see, here on Earth he views and treats all humans the same, not giving special quirks or winks to anyone.

@Bishop

That's predestination and only a small minority hold that belief. It's not about small good things happening to everyone, because fortune and misfortune smiles on good and evil alike (and this is talked about on the Bible). So the question becomes: How do you tell? Well, it's pretty tough to know what is a direct intervention—however, according to the Bible, God is ultimately the source of all good things, so it's ultimately from him one way or another. There's no easy way to tell if he directly changed the situation in your favor, but probability sometimes helps.

This paragraph relies on the assumption of predestination, so I don't have much else to respond with other than that's not what Christian theology typically states. Some extreme Calvinist will lean that way, but I have the same problem with that belief that you do.

[Bishop]

Well here is the thing about predestination, how am I looking it from my angle anyway. God knows how everything will go and how it will all happen. There might be millions of roads and timelines that the world could follow and God has seen and knows them all. But here is the thing, we ourselves, are stuck in this timeline even if there exists a timeline where we do something different and get different results. Hear me out.

Just take time out of the equation. The things that we do in one universe or parallel world belong to that world so for that world we do certain actions that separate us and differentiate us from our clone in another world and every time we make a choice, know that our clone in another world has taken the other choice.

Now for this world we are in, we make choices that separate us from the other ones, we follow a course that makes us unique in the decisions that we take. Wouldn't you agree with that? So in a way, our fate is already decided in this world if we take time out of the equation. In the eyes of God, he knows what will happen in this world, what will happen to everyone in it, the special things and actions that separate it from the other ones. He knows that you won't pick option A but pick option D in this world, in this timeline.

The decisions you make may create many numerous roads and timelines which have their own clone worlds and people, where you are included and where you make another decision. But the point is, God has created and planned every single road and he knows which one you will take as time is nothing for him so in a way it IS already decided as how can you pick an action that goes outside of God's plan? How can you pick an action, how can you do something which God has not seen or foretold?

Ok, so God is the source of all good things. Doesn't add anything since I claimed that he views everyone the same and helps evil people and good people alike so he isn't really "kind". Doing a small goodness to someone who has had a long life of hardships isn't showing kindness, it's like waving a 200$ piece of beef in front of a homeless man so he can smell it and wonder how good life could've been if God truly cared about him and showed him kindness.

[Fractured]

@Bishop

I'm going to try to sum that up in fewer words to ensure that I understand your point correctly, so correct me if I'm wrong. You're essentially saying that because God knows the choices we're going to make ahead of time, we don't have the free will to make the decisions because he already knows the answer. But the problem with that argument is that it implies that knowledge of the future impedes our ability to make choices with free will. Consider it this way: If I'm talking to someone I know well, I know they're not going to take out a gun and shoot themselves (extreme example, but it works). Does the fact that I know they won't do that preventing them from doing so? No, they totally have the free will to do that if they want, but because I know them, I know how they will behave. My knowledge of what the future will be doesn't impact the self-contained structure of a situation. There's also another concept that being in every place at every time means that "knowing the future" becomes kind of irrelevant because forever is the present for God. I don't really have a strong opinion on this concept, but it's there.

The problem with that argument is that it assumes the good and the bad are treated equally by God. They're not.

[Bishop]

@Fractured We have a free will to take different roads and different paths and that is what has created those insurmountable other worlds where we follow other paths. But in this world, our paths are already decided, the things that make this world unique are set in stone as looked upon by God. We, ourselves , have already performed actions of our free will that led to the creation of this world so in a way it is predestination but also free will if you know what I mean. Kinda mixing how you would see the past present and future of this world in one go where you get time out of the equation but also that those actions, although set in stone are chosen by our own free will.

Anyway the main point was that whatever good thing is planned to happen to you, it has already happened, it is set in stone. There is no past present or future for God so whatever he has given you out of kindness it has/will happen. Everything is written. The only thing praying to God will do is...well I think absolutely nothing unless he took the praying people gave Him into account when he put this Grand Plan of humanity's creation into motion.

The problem with that argument is that it assumes the good and the bad are treated equally by God. They're not.

We all know that in the afterlife they are treated like polar opposites but I was typing about here, on Earth. Tell me one constant fact, one example where bad and evil people have bad luck while good people have only good things happen to them.

[Fractured]

@Bishop

I'm not sure that I'm following. Do you mind elaborating? If you mean that we're just a series of chemical reactions and there's no randomness to anything in a closed system, I'd be inclined to agree with you, except for the belief that bringing in a spiritual side of things breaks the whole "closed system" part of human behavior.

I'd like to reinforce that a large portion of Christians reject the notion of predestination.

Do you want empirical evidence or theological evidence? Because for the former, it's not exactly like we have case studies everywhere, since it's not generally the most newsworthy thing. I have personal examples if you want them, and a couple non-personal. But if you want situations where the structure of reality changed for someone who asked, I'm a bit more limited. That's not to say that I have nothing, but it makes my job more difficult for the aforementioned reasons. I'd also like to reinforce that it's not a direct good vs. bad person discussion. There are layers to it.

[Bishop]

@Fractured I'm saying that the things that have happened, happen and will happen in this world are predestined to happen. If you take time out of equation, again, you have a bunch of events, a bunch of choices and actions that define the people in this world, define us, make us unique compared to other worlds and timelines. All these choices are made on free will, they are made by us but in the end, from someone who looks back on these choices from the future, they are set on stone and as such they are also set on stone right now and they have been set on stone from the beginning of time.

I don't see how you, and many Christians, reject predestination when you believe in God. God=predestination. He has seen everything that will and has been, he has set everything in motion and he has the power to change anything he wants. God isn't affected by time and as so past, present and future don't matter to him.
Say, if you buy 100.000.000 dominoes and put them in their places, you form a giant construct. You also have a vision of a future where you tip the dominoes and you see that because of bad positioning 10.000 of them are still left standing. At that moment you have the choice to fix them so they all fall or just let them stand. You can also freeze time so in the middle of everything falling you can snatch some dominoes or simply just use your hand to swipe everything off the ground. Limitless possibilities all at your fingertips

Dominoes served as analogy to humans but since humans can change their "falling pattern" it just means there are more futures but it is the same in principle. Everything was made by God and was set in motion by him. He also knows every outcome and can change it at His whim. Now if that isn't predestination I don't know what is.

And for the last part, how isn't it a good vs evil thing? Since God is kind and all that is good and he separates the good people from the bad ones, doesn't that mean that he clearly favors one side? As such, why doesn't he help every good human in earth and cause bad luck to fall upon the evil people? No, he just treats everyone the same in Earth but after that, you may be right for all I know or care. No personal examples you could give would change that. If it was true that that good people who do good deeds get more good luck it would be known worldwide by now.

[Fractured]

@Bishop

Great analogy; I'm going to work with it too. Cause and effect is huge here, so let's say he sets it up and knows every way the dominos can fall, since they can choose to fall in different ways. It would be predestination (mostly) if he said "Okay, I'm going to influence every single decision." However, according to Christian theology, he allows people to make their own decisions for the most part, and allows the dominos to fall where they may to some degree. If I understand your view point, if God pushed the first domino and then looked away forever (a non-personal God), then free will would exist. But if God pushes every domino individually (controlling God), then free will doesn't not exist. But does an intervening God (personal God) who only acts part of the time allow for free will? I would say yes, because we are not bound to his will.

The reason he doesn't separate is because anyone who isn't forgiven is evil in this world, regardless of how many good acts they do. A thief is still a thief even if he saves a puppy. So "good people" is a bit of an oxymoron, because we are only made good if forgiven. And I would argue that people who do what he says generally do end up with a better outcome than those who don't, but it's not always a material thing. They end up making an impact and have joy rather than a lot of "stuff." If personal anecdotes won't help, then I'm not sure how you'd expect me to show it. Though I also would like to say that the idea of karma (good and evil come back to you) is actually very much widely known throughout the world and has something to it.

[DarkwolfX37]

Heaven's Feel is finally getting an anime, which means they might redo the Fate route in the future.

[Fractured]

Heaven's Feel is finally getting an anime, which means they might redo the Fate route in the future.

@DarkwolfX37

Good or bad?

[DarkwolfX37]

<Snipped quote by DarkwolfX37>

Good or bad?

@Fractured

Heaven's Feel is imo the middle route in terms of quality. Dunno if they're gonna do it well like UBW or bad like F, but it seems to be the same animation style if not the same producers as the UBW anime.

[DarkwolfX37]

Hot damn the pokemon go update added some stuff that might bring the game back for a while. Should've been there since the beginning, but...

[Fractured]

Hot damn the pokemon go update added some stuff that might bring the game back for a while. Should've been there since the beginning, but...

@DarkwolfX37

Too far gone at this point. Niantic is a terrible company and released the game too early. Human beings don't start caring about things again after they've lost interest.

[Armed Forces]

Not even gonna talk about the game right now. I just want to share the beautiful art with you all.

[Host]

@Armed Forces

Not even gonna talk about the game right now. I just want to share the beautiful art with you all.

@Armed Forces

So big RIP load times. Looks cool though.

[DarkwolfX37]

<Snipped quote by DarkwolfX37>

Too far gone at this point. Niantic is a terrible company and released the game too early. Human beings don't start caring about things again after they've lost interest.

@Fractured

You'd be surprised.

Not even gonna talk about the game right now. I just want to share the beautiful art with you all.

@Armed Forces

Eh.

[DarkwolfX37]

FLCL is getting a season 2 and season 3 and they look fantastic. The worst part about FLCL (aside from having to watch it 8 times to get every little detail on why it's brilliant) was the animation style, and they way bumped it up for this. So much good stuff is coming from the end of 2017 onward. Apocrypha's anime is out, Heaven's Feel is coming, GO is out, pokemon go is getting updated to a point it might be good by then, FLCL 2 and 3 are coming, Ultra Sun and Moon... So much good stuff.

[Host]

<Snipped quote by Fractured>

You'd be surprised.

<Snipped quote by Armed Forces>

Eh.

@DarkwolfX37

Maybe the legit fans. No way the normies though.