A Kind question

[Dinh AaronMk]

Kaga said
I'm sorry. I just can't take this statement seriously.I'll let Dervish take this one. I have nothing else to say.

Obviously he must be looking at Ferguson and going, "This is the model of all America".

[Lo Pellegrino]

Dervish said
Yeah, but we're not living in the 1300s anymore. Any fears that were the source of our mythology and fables isn't relative to our society any longer. Notice how people love werewolves and vampires today? Back when they were created, they killed people for allegedly being one of those creatures. The stories that survive today that were written dozens, if not hundreds or thousands of years ago, survive because of historical value or because they are good stories, not because we're terrified of what they represent.Nobody alive today knows of what it was like around the time where Europe was on it's slaughter happy Crusade binge, and nobody knows what it's like to have an equally powerful and enlightened Middle East in our modern world. It's not that people are scared of darked skinned people in fantasy, as you allege, it's just nobody really knows or appreciates the setting. Sure, there's always going to be the odd racist asshat, but on the whole we live in a pretty tolerant and understanding culture. We're more than capable of separating old myths and legends with reality, because otherwise we'd hear about ships disappearing and immediately blame it on sea monsters. Hell, most people don't read The Lord of the Rings and realize Tolkein wrote it as a "fundamentally Catholic story", as he described it. The messages and themes we take from it are decidedly different from the author's on the whole.Tl:dr Whatever the reasons a fantasy story or myth was written does not mean it applies to contemporary society. We tend to enjoy folklore and myths for entertainment value more-so than any perceived lesson or fear it's trying to instill upon us.

I'll definitely say you're right, thankfully, that a lot of the old meanings are changed. But they're not lost. A lot of those symbols still ring true to us, even if their meaning is merely in the general direction of the original intention. I mean, just look at the Apple of Adam and Eve. It doesn't actually exist, Jewish/Christian literature only calls it a fruit and I figure apple's probably aren't the first you'd expect in Africa/Western Asia, yet despite all that, an Apple today has this power as an image that harkens back. The meaning isn't quite the same today as it was before, nor is the symbol, but we still feel the gist of it. In the same way those old fairy tales still guide our stories now. And the old ways of painting those archetypes definitely show through. You don't have to be a progressive liberal to note the deep racism even Bruce Lee experienced in Hollywood, where colour is all too often exotified and demonized. The odd ball racist doesn't quite account for the incarceration ratios in America either. Overall, if the stories we use repeat from generation to generation, built from old biases, even if the cancer is dead, do you still want to raise your children around it? In all seriousness, I do agree that things have changed. We hide our judgements in small gestures, all too often unaware that what we are doing and saying is actually very hurtful. I really dig the idea of bringing some other mythologies and forms of entertainment like Dinh's suggesting for its freshness and willingness to explore something that defies some basic rules in Western society.

@Dinh: Never been to Ferguson, and while I'm aware of what's going on over there, I don't have to go 20 miles to see what our country thinks of other cultures.

Kaga said
I'm sorry. I just can't take this statement seriously.

I'll let Dervish take this one. I have nothing else to say.

Uh... okay. I'm pretty certain Dervish responded already, not that he needed permission, so, why post that you have nothing to post?

[Kaga]

Lo Pellegrino said
Uh... okay. I'm pretty certain Dervish responded already, not that he needed permission, so, why post that you have nothing to post?

I just felt the need to point out the ridiculousness of that statement.

I added the second part to clarify that I couldn't put together of a drawn-out response to it all, and thus I would just "let Dervish handle it" since he pretty much already said everything I was thinking, anyway, so I would just leave the rest to him rather than fully jumping in, myself.

[idlehands]

Kaga said
I just felt the need to point out the ridiculousness of that statement.I added the second part to clarify that I couldn't put together of a drawn-out response to it all, and thus I would just "let Dervish handle it" since he pretty much already said everything I was thinking, anyway, so I would just leave the rest to him rather than fully jumping in, myself.

He does this to me all the time.

Lo Pellegrino said
I'll definitely say you're right, thankfully, that a lot of the old meanings are changed. But they're not lost. A lot of those symbols still ring true to us, even if their meaning is merely in the general direction of the original intention. I mean, just look at the Apple of Adam and Eve. It doesn't actually exist, Jewish/Christian literature only calls it a fruit and I figure apple's probably aren't the first you'd expect in Africa/Western Asia, yet despite all that, an Apple today has this power as an image that harkens back. The meaning isn't quite the same today as it was before, nor is the symbol, but we still feel the gist of it. In the same way those old fairy tales still guide our stories now. And the old ways of painting those archetypes definitely show through. You don't have to be a progressive liberal to note the deep racism even Bruce Lee experienced in Hollywood, where colour is all too often exotified and demonized. The odd ball racist doesn't quite account for the incarceration ratios in America either. Overall, if the stories we use repeat from generation to generation, built from old biases, even if the cancer is dead, do you still want to raise your children around it? In all seriousness, I do agree that things have changed. We hide our judgements in small gestures, all too often unaware that what we are doing and saying is actually very hurtful. I really dig the idea of bringing some other mythologies and forms of entertainment like Dinh's suggesting for its freshness and willingness to explore something that defies some basic rules in Western society.@Dinh: Never been to Ferguson, and while I'm aware of what's going on over there, I don't have to go 20 miles to see what our country thinks of other cultures. Uh... okay. I'm pretty certain Dervish responded already, not that he needed permission, so, why post that you have nothing to post?

Ugh, please clean up after your bleeding heart. You're making a mess.

[Brovo]

Dinh AaronMk said I ask this because I have been holding for sometime an RP concept based in part on Arab culture and history. And in observing the forum I haven't seen many people going for the middle east. That whole area seems to be forgotten and ignored by people, except for a few. And even based on some preliminary interest checking before I interest checked I haven't had any promising bites. Which is a shame, because I'm rather excited over this.

I've had the same issue crop up with a few of my own ideas. The best suggestion I can offer is to go forth and do it, but ease people into these new cultural and technical aspects. When you do start the RP, ensure that you have a sort of 'tutorial', you have a couple of NPC's to help explain to the players what that part of the world is like. Make sure to devote a portion of the OOC exclusively to world building, fleshing out the most basic aspects, and one specific area if you can. Get to marketing it to death--use interest checks, reference it whenever you can, etc.

Then remember: It'll probably implode once or twice. That's fine. Take the best players from the original attempt, ask them what they thought of it and tell them that you're remaking it. Rebuild it and re-release it within a week, taking into account any errors you had. (Maybe you spent too long world building, for example.) Try again. Keep trying until you find a formula that sticks and players to form the core group of the role play with, and it will work, no matter how obscure.

I'm running a post apocalypse near-future role play about shapeshifters, insanely xenophobic pseudo-american hyper patriots, and autocratic bunker colonies. If something that obscure can survive, I'm sure an RP about arabic culture certainly can, so long as there's a suitable conflict to drive the story forward that people can relate to.

EDIT

Also, America, not culturally varied?

Snort.

You don't notice it because you live there. As an outsider (Canadian), you have plenty of cultural diversity. You simply treat it differently than we do. You're a cultural melting pot, taking the most prolific aspects of each culture and putting them into this myriad concoction known as American culture. Canada is Multicultural, we emphasize identifying and enjoying the different subcultures rather than putting them all in the same pot and mixing them together.

They're both equally valid ways of cultural recognition: Integrating parts of a culture or accepting a multitude of different cultures are both examples of a culturally diverse society.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Jig said
Frankly, I don't remember the last RP I saw that was based on real-life earth that was set even anywhere in Europe. When I recently started an RP (tl;dr version - vampires in the Netherlands), I got some feedback appreciating that the RP was set somewhere a bit different. I don't think it has much to do with 'fear' of Arabian culture or settings, but simply no interest in them, fuelled by a lack of cultural imports. I'm not American, but I'm guessing most of their media is home-grown, and then the biggest import is Japanese. With bags of material rooted in those cultural references and a fat lot of nothing else, it's no surprise that most RPs are America-and-Japan centric.I can't name a single Arab television show. The absence of Arabian cultural imports is probably the main reason.

Dervish said
Most big fantasy settings are set in medieval European inspired settings, so it's what people are familiar with. Knights, kingdoms, and dragons and the lot are easy to conjure up in the mind compared to say Mamluks, Caliphates, and sphinxes for a lot of people. Usually when people read the word fantasy as a descriptor, Westeros, Middle Earth, Tamriel, and countless others come to mind, most with heavy European slants. Sure, a lot have Middle Eastern inspired places (Dorne in ASoIaF, Hammerfell in The Elder Scrolls, for instance) but we seldom see much of those places so they aren't immediately what come to mind. People like to roleplay what they're familiar with, so it doesn't surprise me that Arabian inspired settings aren't very common. I'm sure if you looked at an Arabic roleplaying site, their fantasy games would probably have a lot more settings reflecting Sinbad the Sailor, among others. It isn't that people are "afraid" of Arabs as much as it's not something people are familiar with. it's also the reason you don't really see anything having to do with Chinese mythology in the vein of Jade Empire, that excellent BioWare RPG, because people really don't know much about that kind of setting.

These.

Being perfectly honest the lack of Arabic RPs is not due to any racism or fear like people may claim.

American & European Culture is dominant because that's what most people are used to/grew up around.
Asian Cultures tend to be next because they're probably the next biggest culture to mix in, while a lot of Arabic countries are well known to more isolate themselves.

Plus speaking from pure personal opinion, I do not find much of Arabic culture interesting. Maybe I just wasn't shown much of it's good parts (I completely note the influence they had on ancient science though mind you) but culture wise it just looks like people behind the times who still have barbaric sexist practices. While Asia has stuff like anime, ninjas and samurai to take ideas from Arabic tends to draw a blank.

*Disclaimer* Before anyone replies going "I'm Arabic and I'm not like that!", I never did say you were so stop right now before putting words in my mouth. Arabic people are still human beings and just as likely to be good people as everyone else. I am strictly saying when I look at Arabic culture there isn't much of interest, if anything I simply see backwards practices.

[idlehands]

The Middle Eastern ancient cultures were a lot more interesting and, as you said, contributed to science and math at the times. They were more advanced in many ways than their contemporaries in Europe. Go back beyond Islam and it gets even more fascinating with the Mesopotamians.

Currently, not so much. In western eyes, the current cultures seem backward and violent and though it is not across the board, it is what is presented. Nearly every country in the Middle East is currently at war and there can be no denying the oppression of women and minorities in a pretty extreme way.

Most people aren't history buffs and looking at the media now days, one doesnt see much that is appealing about playing in a Middle Eastern setting unless it's about war.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I might be up for a Arabic RP if someone was able to show an interesting idea/premise in the Interest Check, in other words show the cool culture right there and not go "Arabic Culture is cool, trust me".

But it's not something I'd join on a whim, and unless if Cosmos releases another season and goes more into Arabic influence in Science I'm unlikely to find the motivation or interest to learn more about the culture.

[Tydosius]

Hey, as long as role-players get some new material to role-play with, I'm all for it. My only fear is that people may overly fetishize the culture. Or bastardize it. Essentially I fear people disrespecting the subject matter.

[AlienBastard]

Think it's bad with arabic culture?

Try indian culture in a sci-fi RP that historically colonized a star system and watch that star system be empty.

[Dinh AaronMk]

You talkin' about Exile's current state as an RP boi?

Go and post in that.

[AlienBastard]

Dinh AaronMk said
You talkin' about Exile's current state as an RP boi?Go and post in that.

I anticipate your arabic new world RP that will be best in quality of the forums.

However never was I referring to Exile or any state of it.

I was referring to Empty Horizons, a space RP that me and iso are running.

[Dinh AaronMk]

I think Duck tried to send me that.

And I need to get back to that map.

[AlienBastard]

Duck? Why is he inviting people to RPs he hasn't even expressed interest in?

And yes, glorious it will be.

[Dinh AaronMk]

Well, he was trying to for some really convoluted sci-fi RP. I don't know if it was that specifically.

[AlienBastard]

Duck? Why is he inviting people to RPs he hasn't even expressed interest in?

And yes, glorious it will be.

[Dinh AaronMk]

Hell if I know. But it was something, I think. Another really weird sci-fi RP if I remember. I'm just not generally interested.

Also, I did finish up the map. So, check it. I would have written more in Arabic if I wanted to go through the challenges of translation/transliteration. But I wasn't sure if I could write it all to a large enough size given the space on some things.

[Dinh AaronMk]

Hell if I know. But it was something, I think. Another really weird sci-fi RP if I remember. I'm just not generally interested.

Also, I did finish up the map. So, check it. I would have written more in Arabic if I wanted to go through the challenges of translation/transliteration. But I wasn't sure if I could write it all to a large enough size given the space on some things.

[AlienBastard]

Dinh AaronMk said
Hell if I know. But it was something, I think. Another really weird sci-fi RP if I remember. I'm just not generally interested.Also, I did finish up the map. So, . I would have written more in Arabic if I wanted to go through the challenges of translation/transliteration. But I wasn't sure if I could write it all to a large enough size given the space on some things.

So when can this RP be expected to be up? I want to pillage some marble statues and have some kidnapped artisans put my face on them.

Among other things.

Like maybe giving the poor statue some clothing and writing verses from the quran on the arms and assuming that the aniconism typically associated with the sunni faith has fallen on the wayside. Especially with the relative societal stability and Mongolians not killing everyone I know or burning down the house of wisdom.

[Dinh AaronMk]

Mongols did burn down the House of Wisdom. The Baghdad school did however find a home in Cordoba. The Basra school probably got dissolved, followed their Bahgdad rivals, or incorporated themselves into Sufi theological schools.