Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by darkwolf687
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HollywoodMole said
Something I've been finding hilarious is the yes party saying. "The no's are being to negative." What are they gonna do? Say Independence is a great idea?


Of course. Its scaremongering to suggest otherwise.

I love it when they say "make a positive case for the union" or "No has no heart" and the minute a Unionist tries to make a positive or emotional case he's sneered at. Damned if they do and damned if they don't.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by idlehands
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darkwolf687 said
And the polls put no back in the lead again. Seems that one was an anomaly? We had one like it before a few years back.I wonder if one of Salmonds underlings threat of a "Day of reckoning" on No voters had anything to do with that. Or all the money flowing out... Or the businesses planning to leave?We've seen but a taste of what is to come with a Yes Vote. And not just in Scotland. Anyone who thinks this won't hit all us Brits, and hit us all hard, is either in denial or being arrogant.Still less than a week now. I pray to god its a no vote, I'd be crestfallen if Scotland left us. My country would loss 33% of the land and 10% of its economy, to be sure, but what would really be gone is something you cant really value: The Scottish people.How could my country continue to claim to be "British" without the Scots? Only through England and Scotland can the UK and "British" exist (Wales too, but they were part of England at the time) Only through this Union of the two have they projected change onto the world. A lot of which was good change, changes everyone but the most despicable of people can support. The abolition of slavery, the protection of Europe from the grips of nazi thugs, the protection of the Falklands will from Argentinian dictators, to name but a few. Through this Union, we can continue to project good onto the world. Without it, I fear these islands may slip into irrelevance, and with it a pillar of crumbling Europe torn away. We were on the road to recovery. Supposedly on road to over taking France. We were resurging. When we are all recovering, why would Scotland wish to turn around and plunge not only themselves, but us too back into the pit of economic disaster? Look to Ireland, to Iceland. Were they not part of Salmonds "Arc of prosperity"? Now they are bankrupt, unable to fall back on another power for safety. Where would Scotland be if it was independent in 2008? Bankrupt, with no one to fall back on for safety.If anyone thought the recession we are barely climbing out of was bad, the one resulting from a split at such a fragile time will be hell on Earth.This union isn't about dominance, its about safety and security. The safety and security the members of the UK provide to each other. Its about Unity over Division. Are we in tough times? Hell yes, we saw a recession that hit us all hard, but awful things happen and we're battling our way forwards.


Dammit I thought this thread was gonna die well
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by darkwolf687
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Doivid said



Oh shit.

There goes the money again, I was hoping we could spend the last few days up to the vote without the news yelling about the devaluing pound and billions of pounds leaving Britain.

Sigh, here we go again...
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Azarthes said
Dammit I thought this thread was gonna die well


You were only fooling yourself.
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idlehands said
You were only fooling yourself.


I hope against hope that everything is gonna go according to plan.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Dervish
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Who would ever want to part a nation who gave birth to this glorious man?

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A young Private Bean at 1:11.
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by scribz
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darkwolf687 said
Oh shit.There goes the money again, I was hoping we could spend the last few days up to the vote without the news yelling about the devaluing pound and billions of pounds leaving Britain.Sigh, here we go again...


You realize changing the headquarters has no effect to the economic activity of the country right? Only reason prices go down is because BBC went against regulation by posting sensitive financial market material before the starting work day that these things can be regulated with, RBS then had to confirm a statement to protect their shares. Nothing more happened, the economy isn't going to crumble, everything is fine. :>
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by scribz
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#ayeordie
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by darkwolf687
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scribz said
You realize changing the headquarters has no effect to the economic activity of the country right? Only reason prices go down is because BBC went against regulation by posting sensitive financial market material, RBS then had to confirm a statement to protect their shares. Nothing more happened, the economy isn't going to crumble, everything is fine. :>


Well, the headquarters is where the majority of tax is payed.

And I wasn't talking about banks. I was talking about the falling pound, the "17 billion" torn out of the UK over last month, the sudden change from low to high risk in the investments of both countries should independence come

If you think this won't affect people you're having a laugh. We're all going to suffer for it across these islands. And for what, exactly? What is this all over? Another flag and line on a map? What are we achieving by tearing this country up, at a time where further integration into larger bodies should be regarded as the way forwards?

Nothing, we're just breaking both our backs. The economic benefits are peddled by a man whose response to everything bad is to brand it as bullying, as scaremongering, even as respected experts in their fields are yelling at him to stop, he continues to drive the economy of Scotland and rUK at 100mph towards a brick wall. He may have his country at heart, but he cant seem to wrap his head around actually being worse off for independence.

And honestly, regulation or not, what the BBC did was right. Better people know now what they are getting into than get hit hard when they are supposed to be happy in the days following the vote.

It never should have come to this. Everyone's lying now, making up rubbish to shoot at the other side. The Yes Campaign is just better at it. As usual, the commoners will suffer, the rich will just take their ball and go somewhere else.
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darkwolf687 said
Well, the headquarters is where the majority of tax is payed.


Actually utterly and completely false. Did you know RBS is also in england? Did you know that despite RBS's headquarters being in scotland, England got the tax of the economic activity n England? Why, would it be any different now? The HQ isn't even open to the public, it's the bank behind their chain branch, not a single dollar is placed their directly by their people, it's all just legislation and business meeting. Where it decides to go is irrelevant, RBS's problem isn't the lacking economic power an independent scotland, rather BBC going against regulation which brought a shock in stock prices in hours before RBS can take action

As for everything else you said, scotland wants a lot of changes unanimously, but we're not given the Max Devolution vote. Some of us now don't want a thing to do with westminister, and i'm one of them. They don't represent us, and they've never wanted to unless they felt they had to.

Scotland will have some teething issues i'm sure, and England will have a large blow to them too. But the money thrown back into the countries will be placed into the flow of people more across the north and south capitals, it will be a more beneficial economic model for both scotland, and anyone north of london. We shouldn't have to justify our economics any more, a strong case has been made for it, stronger than the vast countries in europe if they had to face a split. Things like being allowed in the EU when w'ell be more productive than france by their calculations, sharing the pound even though we can do it without their consent and also having other options like the Euro and our own currency anyway, when the first option will entirely be made anyway on accounts to england not being an idiot to losing economic trade with scotland and allowing us off with no debt. And this ridiculous idea that separation with cause harm to the economy for good, even though changes in the economic will happen regardless of our economic situation, and that we're more than easily able to bounce back from it.

It's just...silly to think that this is going to end in all doom and gloom. If we vote for independence on thursday, i'll miss england, I love the people there dearly, I have family that are english, and friends that are english, but I won't miss westminister, because despite being voted in, neither labour or conservatives in Westminster represent the honest workers of scotland, or england.
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scribz said
Actually utterly and completely false. Did you know RBS is also in england? Did you know that despite RBS's headquarters being in scotland, England got the tax of the economic activity n England? Why, would it be any different now? The HQ isn't even open to the public, it's the bank behind their chain branch, not a single dollar is placed their directly by their people, it's all just legislation and business meeting. Where it decides to go is irrelevant, RBS's problem isn't the lacking economic power an independent scotland, rather BBC going against regulation which brought a shock in stock prices in hours before RBS can take actionAs for everything else you said, scotland wants a lot of changes unanimously, but we're not the Max Devolution vote. Some of us now don't want a thing to do with westminister, and i'm one of them. They don't represent us, and they've never wanted to unless they felt they to. Scotland will have some teething issues i'm sure, and England will have a large blow to them too. But the money thrown back into the countries will be placed into the flow of people more across the north and south capitals, it will be a more beneficial economic model for both scotland, and anyone north of london. We shouldn't have to justify our economics any more, a strong case has been made for it, stronger than the vast countries in europe if they had to face a split. Things like being allowed in the EU when w'ell be more productive than france by calculations, sharing the pound even though we can do it without their consent and also having other options like the Euro and our own currency anyway, the first option will entirely be made anyway on accounts to england not being an idiot to losing economic trade with scotland and allowing us off with no debt. And this ridiculous idea that separation with cause harm to the economy for good, even though changes in the economic happen regardless of our economic situation, and that we're more than easily able to bounce back from it. It's just...silly to think that this is going to end in all doom and gloom. If we vote for independence on thursday, i'll miss england, I love the people there dearly, I have family that are english, and friends that are english, but I won't miss westminister, because despite being voted in, neither labour or conservatives in Westminster represent the honest workers of scotland, or england.


If Westminster sank into the Thames, nobody would miss the damned thing, we know that. Its foolish to think the same wont be said of the government of Scotland.

The arguments are economic realism. The world is not fair, the world is not easy, we will be hurt. Hurt doesn't begin to cover it, actually. Doom and gloom is the more laughable stories that Scotland would be open to a Russian invasion. That's doom and gloom. Pointing out the flaws in the SNP's arguments, of which there are many, is realism. Some of their arguments are contradictory, others rely on money that Scotland simply won't have. Others are either false or extremely optimistic estimates Hell, the white paper assumes the oil is priced at $150 a barrel... More than 50 more than its current value.

And no shit RBS is in England, I notice the sign down the street from my house. Its also 85% owned by the UK. The headquaters basing brings in a disproportionate amount of tax for Scotland. Honestly, I expect they'll end up staying once Salmond engages his race to the bottom corporation tax policy. He's about as Socialist as Thatcher and it takes one look at him to work that out.

Your problem is also assuming the EU countries aren't going to cover their own backs. France alone has two separatist regions, rUK is going to try and appeal to the voters anger... Same with NATO. No respected body in these organisation is going to want to encourage separatists.

A more beneficial model would be to reverse the shit Westminster has pulled in the past 30 years, not split the country in half and cause resentment on either side of the border... For no reason. The people have mostly the same values, their culture is hardly a massive reason for seperation. It not some irreconcilable difference, its a massive risk for no reason other than "Westminter don't represent us", of which the name in that sentence will simply change under independence
Using the pound without a currency union is not the same thing, and you are intelligent enough to know it. Its a terrible plan, and there wont be a currency union. Do you think the electorate is going to allow that? There is a real sense of abandonment down here. We chipped in to help in 2008, and now we have some git telling us that we've been stealing Scotlands oil and that we should bend over and do what he wants... Oh, and that our businesses will be nationalised in Scotland in a "day of reckoning"? And that they will take no debt if we don't give them exactly what they want? Do you know how many people, right or wrong, think that this is a betrayal? It seems to many that Scotland is being greedy and trying to make off with the money. There won't be a fair treatment of Scotland, its wrong but their wont be, not here, not in the EU, not in NATO etc. The campaign has been handled in such a way that makes it drip of venom.

Economic activity may happen, but that doesn't just reverse decay like a flash. This is going to hit us hard and we will feel it for many, many years, and neither will be well off even after the economy does recover. It will set us both back and give us a greater distance to go.

A lot of respected, big business people as saying this is a bad, bad idea. A lot of economists are saying this is a bad idea. The fact that nearly half of Scotland is willing to bet massively against the odds not only scares me, but makes me wonder what that says about humans. Why do we refuse to play it safe, especially when we have entered an upturn?
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Sable
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What news from yonder highlands?
Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by HollywoodMole
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Sable said
What news from yonder highlands?


So you mean from Scotland or the Highlands OF Scotland?
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Is this thread still about Scotland after six pages? I'm impressed.
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Hidden 10 yrs ago Post by Brovo
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Lets get some rational shit in here.

A. Scotland goes independent, they're still friends with the UK, they're still going to openly trade, and it would be sane business to simply have their own version of NAFTA with England. They're still part of the Commonwealth. The only thing that's sincerely different is that they choose to manage their own affairs with their own government.

B. Scotland does not go independent. Status Quo maintained.

As others have said, this is not a violent coup in some third world piece of shit that happens to contain oil: It's a first world country, with first world infrastructure, a first world educated populace, that is generally peace loving and would have every possible incentive in the universe to trade with literally everyone they're already trading with. To the outside world there'd be little to no difference. Goods shipped from Scotland would have a Scotland logo on them instead of an England one. Woo... That's... Different? I guess?

This is mainly an "oh my god" for the United Kingdom. Because they wouldn't really be united anymore.

Also, for those pointing at Québec and what horrendous economic collapses would go on if they went independent, as a Canadian, I'm just gonna say: Completely different situations. Québec is surrounded by Canada and their local provincial policies would not allow them to economically survive whatsoever. They also tend to half-ass the independence movement. (Like they want to be independent, but they still want to use Canadian currency, all the while dumping all of their debt on us... ?????) Scotland, on the other hand, has natural resources beyond oil, and from what I'm aware of, they don't have insane social policies that they could not possible in a thousand years afford without the UK.

Really it doesn't seem like Scotland going free would be a bad thing. I mean it's a peaceful referendum and if things go to shit they can always just rejoin the UK. It's not like the UK will say no to regaining control over Scotland...
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Thank you brovo.
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